Anyone working on tuning??

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Moose

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by neohalo

lol if that doesnt shut up those two bill and dragon, i dont know what will lol

I was sharing what I felt would possibly benefit others. Like I said earlier though, your money your car, I'm just offering some friendly advice based on my past experience with cars.

I wasn't calling anyone names or making fun of anyone either, lets keep it real folks.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Moose

If there were a socketed, Windows-based ECU tuning program for Toyota, like a Crome or Uberdata, it would be much easier. The un-availability of such things is what makes this difficult.

The reason I'm not a big fan of piggybacks is what largeorangefont mentioned- the security measures in the newer (OBD2B and newer) ECUs. Even on Hondas, who have all of the aftermarket support imaginable, one wrong move with a VAFC or SAFC will cause multiple DTCs. Crankshaft position sensor codes, throttle position codes, hell, even immobilizer codes! Imagine not being able to start your car until you have zeroed and removed your SAFC- I've been there, and it SUCKS.

Going to a socketed program was actually, not counting dyno time, cheaper and easier, and virtually trouble free.

I agree. I like the reflash route alot more, But if an Emanage (or whatever) is the only option we have, then that is fine. There are ways to disable the codes should they come up. It's just a pain tracking down the solutions. I don't really forsee any issues though. All we need is simple timing and fueling adjustments. For that there should be no CELs involved unless you go catless. Catalyst inefficiency are very simple to fix however.

Ashley

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

That not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true.

Ashley

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Dragonacc

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Moose

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

Gotcha. I knew that is where you were going, however there are some people on here that are less informed that may not have the same perspective.

Weather its piggyback or a reflash, it is all just means to an end and picking the product that will work the best for your application.

Ashley

[acrbill]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

I'm sure anyone in their right mind would take a 30% gain in WHP for $1,200. The problems is that 30whp is far fetched on a car that puts down less than 90 to the wheels.

Now I will go on the assumption that you threw out an arbitrary number.
If you could guarantee that you would see appreciable gains from headers,intakes and pulleys it might be worthwhile.

Here are the problems.

Header- The stocker is already a decent looking tubular piece and the aftermarket options look identical in design so I cannot imagine much if any gains in HP.

Cat-Your not going to gain anything here since all stock cats flow well.

Pulley- The ones I have seen are the same diameter as stock. The only difference is weight.

Exhaust pipe size probably isn't restrictive at near stock power levels.

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

Depends on the brands you choose too. The TRD header alone uses most of that budget. You can definitely get all the parts on the list with that budget, but I'm not sure if it'll be 30whp. Guess we'll see when people start modding them to that point.

One other thing for people to remember is the possible loss of low end power. Opening up the intake and exhaust fully could really hurt the area under the curve. Again, gotta wait until people start doing the mods.

[acrbill]

ChinoCharles, Did you ever get a chance to re-dyno that header you put on?

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by acrbill

ChinoCharles, Did you ever get a chance to re-dyno that header you put on?

I'd be interested to hear the results as well.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by acrbill

I'm sure anyone in their right mind would take a 30% gain in WHP for $1,200. The problems is that 30whp is far fetched on a car that puts down less than 90 to the wheels.

Now I will go on the assumption that you threw out an arbitrary number.
If you could guarantee that you would see appreciable gains from headers,intakes and pulleys it might be worthwhile.

Here are the problems.

Header- The stocker is already a decent looking tubular piece and the aftermarket options look identical in design so I cannot imagine much if any gains in HP.

Cat-Your not going to gain anything here since all stock cats flow well.

Pulley- The ones I have seen are the same diameter as stock. The only difference is weight.

Exhaust pipe size probably isn't restrictive at near stock power levels.

The gains from all of that will be between 20-30 HP. Im sure there will be 10+ from the tune alone. The timing is low so the car can run on 87. Tuning it for 91 will be the bulk of the gain. There is probably another 10 between intake and axleback. A good 4-2-1 header and midpipe will make up the balance, probably another 5-10 there.

The net gain may end up being closer to 20 WHP when all is said and done, but 20-30 is a good estimate. It is tuning that is what will make the other parts really work well. Just slapping everything on will see a 10-15 Hp gain, vs tuning for all the addtional parts.

I agree that the stock manifold is decent. I don't think the Megan piece will be the best alternative as time goes on. I'm not spending any $$ for anything that isn't 4-2-1 and\or has longer primaries, so I'm staying stock for now.

A good high flow cat will gain a bit more power vs the 2 stock cats. It a simple way to gain a couple HP. OEM cats don't flow as well and are in the worst possible place. Make no mistake, I'm not saying increase exhaust pipe diameter, just add in a good cat and straight through muffler and you will see gains. It is easier to fab up an entire new header back system than cut and paste in the new components.

Lighter pulleys will free up horsepower even if they are the same diameter as stock. it is just liek running lighter wheels. Any savings in rotating weight is huge.

Ashley

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Dragonacc

Depends on the brands you choose too. The TRD header alone uses most of that budget. You can definitely get all the parts on the list with that budget, but I'm not sure if it'll be 30whp. Guess we'll see when people start modding them to that point.

One other thing for people to remember is the possible loss of low end power. Opening up the intake and exhaust fully could really hurt the area under the curve. Again, gotta wait until people start doing the mods.

I gave an estimate above, and all the basic stuff should be between 20-30 AFTER tuning. I could end up being wrong, but I believe tuning the car for 91 (or higher) will add the bulk of that gain.

As far as exhaust goes, unless you are putting on a power adder, you shouldn't be going any bigger than 2.25 inches for tubing diameter. Anything bigger than that an you will definately be sacraficing bottom end.

[ChinoCharles]

Wow, this thread is on

Did I re-dyno the header... yes. It also happened to have a pulley and an intake on there, but I did it! With a stock exhaust bolted to the Megan intake, you lose power down low to make power at the top end. I am reserving judgement on it until I have the rest of the exhaust.

Ashleys estimates and comments are spot on with both what I see on the graphs and what I'm being told by my dyno tech.

And Moose, don't take it personally. I get frustrated with the naysaying but I respect your opinion. I know you've done this before.

[Skylineee]

Guys i need your advice! I don't have lots of cash to buy big cars wich i preffer the most (Supra,Skyline,Impreza WRX sti) and i got the idea of buying a small car and slowly upgrade it. I was thinking to start with a cheap Yaris. But from what i read here it's a pain in the butt ..tuning it ..and not lots of HP.Is its really that hard to upgrade it?Don't have much of a budget here..or should i go for a Fiat Punto.Any advice is welcomed... thanx

[Loren]

Advice: Start a new topic instead of dredging up one that's over 3 years old.

[cali yaris]

Why start a new one? Read through it, it's completely relevant to a current discussion.

[Loren]

Partially relevant, yes. But personal advice on "what car should I buy" is very different from "what kind of development is being done on the Yaris".