The great intake debate!

[camelll]

Originally Posted by Tamago

what's legal and what you can get away with (or not get away with) are two very different things.

this thread is useless because obviously the law says a CARB sticker must be applied to any performance part for it to be legal. that's the law.

end of thread, no more discussion.

No I was making a point. This has nothing to do with why car manufacturers make air intakes the way they do. What do you think tamago? Do you think they make them because the noise they make is to great for the driver?

We don't have emissions testing so I don't care about them.

[camelll]

I have other stuff to do, so post away, I will be back later.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by camelll

LOL, I have not seen a link from you yet. Teach me grasshopper.

Alright, here they come:

California has special requirements for gasoline, which makes it more expensive because of less availability. We also use different blends for winter vs. summer. That's what I was referring to when I said "grade". Never thought or meant octane, you did.

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/gasoline.html

Here is the article on cold air intakes on Wikipedia (I really don't know what will convince you because you seem so arrogant as to believe that you and only you know the truth). The first sentence is:

Standard air intake systems tend to be very restrictive, in order to eliminate engine noise.

The whole article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_air_intake

I remember seeing a video interview with an engineering expert, when I was shopping for my intake and he was saying the same thing. That's the main reason, noise. I did not come up with this in my dreams. Unfortunately, I can't find the link to the video right now, but I will eventually and will post it here, so you can be enlightened as well.

[cali yaris]

@ camelll:

You said: It WON'T pass.

I said: They do pass.

You are incorrect that "it won't pass". That is not a factual statement.

You can say "it won't legally pass", which I would agree with. But you didn't.

done.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by Tamago

what's legal and what you can get away with (or not get away with) are two very different things.

this thread is useless because obviously the law says a CARB sticker must be applied to any performance part for it to be legal. that's the law.

end of thread, no more discussion.

Tamago, the real discussion was not on whether it is legal or not, I agreed long time ago that it is not legal and that I would not pass the smog. The discussion is more whether the stock intake is meant to reduce noise primarily or emissions.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by camelll

No I was making a point. This has nothing to do with why car manufacturers make air intakes the way they do. What do you think tamago? Do you think they make them because the noise they make is to great for the driver?

We don't have emissions testing so I don't care about them.

manufacturers make intakes down to a price.

then they add air chambers for low end torque

then they add baffles to make them quieter

IMO an intake on an econobox was designed FIRST to be cheap, Second to be quiet, and Third (waaaay out there) to make power.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Tamago, the real discussion was not on whether it is legal or not, I agreed long time ago that it is not legal and that I would not pass the smog. The discussion is more whether the stock intake is meant to reduce noise primarily or emissions.

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by Tamago

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.

Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by Tamago

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

Amen!

That's what I think, too, it's the air/fuel ratio, the gasoline itself and the catalytic converter which determines what comes out the exhaust, not the air intake.

[fmicle]

Camelll, here is more technical info, from www.autoanything.com:

Automakers design your vehicle's intake tube to be the quietest possible unit that can fit in your engine compartment.

The complete link for your reading pleasure: http://www.autoanything.com/air-intakes/50A5A115A1.aspx

[tk-421]

Moved previously OT posts to this thread. Have fun fellas.

For the record, I'm 100% sure I can pass emissions with my Simota CF box filter.

[HTM Yaris]

I say the primary function is shared .

In a cold air system there isn't any "box" or baffles to help muffle or deflect (maybe redirect is the proper term) the sound waves coming from the engine . Actually the exhaust and intake work almost identically , with the exception of the temps and flow direction . Take off your muffler and what happens ..... That's right... it gets louder . Same with the intake box . CAI are designed to increase flow . Sure your filter may be away from the engine or even shielded from the engine , but the actual intake tube is still being heated by means of convection (air flowing through radiator ) and conduction ( you know , those explosions that are generated in the cylinders ) not to mention friction . A true CAI would address all heat issues . A refrigerated wrap around ( the intake tube ) blanket comes to mind .

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution . A turbocharger or supercharger is a perfect (extreme) example of this . Yes I understand that a Turbo or SC forces air into the engine , but my point is more air = more exhaust . Keep in mind , any engine , is nothing but an air pump with accessories attached .

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by HTM Yaris

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution .

But you don't need a CAI for that, just press the gas pedal harder and you'll get more air into the engine So what's the difference in the end?

[camelll]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Alright, here they come:

California has special requirements for gasoline, which makes it more expensive because of less availability. We also use different blends for winter vs. summer. That's what I was referring to when I said "grade". Never thought or meant octane, you did.

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/gasoline.html

Here is the article on cold air intakes on Wikipedia (I really don't know what will convince you because you seem so arrogant as to believe that you and only you know the truth). The first sentence is:

Standard air intake systems tend to be very restrictive, in order to eliminate engine noise.

The whole article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_air_intake

I remember seeing a video interview with an engineering expert, when I was shopping for my intake and he was saying the same thing. That's the main reason, noise. I did not come up with this in my dreams. Unfortunately, I can't find the link to the video right now, but I will eventually and will post it here, so you can be enlightened as well.

The problem with your wikipedia cold air intake is that it says this right at the top.

" This article or section has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss these issues on the talk page.

* It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since July 2008.
* It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since July 2008.
* It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Tagged since July 2008.

Originally Posted by cali yaris

@ camelll:

You said: It WON'T pass.

I said: They do pass.

You are incorrect that "it won't pass". That is not a factual statement.

You can say "it won't legally pass", which I would agree with. But you didn't.

done.

It technically won't pass, because someone does not feel like doing their job does not mean it is okay.

Originally Posted by Tamago

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.

Originally Posted by fmicle

Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

Originally Posted by Tamago

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

Originally Posted by fmicle

Amen!

That's what I think, too, it's the air/fuel ratio, the gasoline itself and the catalytic converter which determines what comes out the exhaust, not the air intake.

More oxygen= more gas, more gas= more emissions. Your cats will do their job but you are still producing more emissions. Your air/fuel ratio is determined by how much air you put in from the intake. The maf makes adjustments as needed. When you have a lean condition, which you get by adding more oxygen, your maf tells the ecu to dump more fuel which in turn does so which raises emissions. Your cats are gonna remove noxious emissions but you are still putting more into your cats.

Originally Posted by fmicle

Camelll, here is more technical info, from www.autoanything.com:

Automakers design your vehicle's intake tube to be the quietest possible unit that can fit in your engine compartment.

The complete link for your reading pleasure: http://www.autoanything.com/air-intakes/50A5A115A1.aspx

Of course someone who is selling you something is gonna say it is okay, if they did otherwise it would have a negative impact on their sales. If the air intake does not affect emissions why do they even bother with it for carb?

Originally Posted by tk-421

Moved previously OT posts to this thread. Have fun fellas.

For the record, I'm 100% sure I can pass emissions with my Simota CF box filter.

Thanks TK, It probably pass but not if you follow the rules.

Originally Posted by HTM Yaris

I say the primary function is shared .

In a cold air system there isn't any "box" or baffles to help muffle or deflect (maybe redirect is the proper term) the sound waves coming from the engine . Actually the exhaust and intake work almost identically , with the exception of the temps and flow direction . Take off your muffler and what happens ..... That's right... it gets louder . Same with the intake box . CAI are designed to increase flow . Sure your filter may be away from the engine or even shielded from the engine , but the actual intake tube is still being heated by means of convection (air flowing through radiator ) and conduction ( you know , those explosions that are generated in the cylinders ) not to mention friction . A true CAI would address all heat issues . A refrigerated wrap around ( the intake tube ) blanket comes to mind .

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution . A turbocharger or supercharger is a perfect (extreme) example of this . Yes I understand that a Turbo or SC forces air into the engine , but my point is more air = more exhaust . Keep in mind , any engine , is nothing but an air pump with accessories attached .

+1 someone who knows.

If you removed your cats and did a sniff test with the stock box and then removed the stock box and put a cai on your emissions will be higher. The debate is not about if your catalytic converters do their jobs it is if the air intake will affect emissions.

[camelll]

Originally Posted by fmicle

But you don't need a CAI for that, just press the gas pedal harder and you'll get more air into the engine So what's the difference in the end?

Your getting more warm air into the engine with the stock box, you are getting more cold air with a cai, cold air is denser than warm air.

[fmicle]

So, I shouldn't believe Wikipedia, I shouldn't believe AEM, I shouldn't believe autoanything.com, but I should believe YOU, because YOU put my best interest at heart, while everyone else is just trying to trick me into buying their product.

Sure...

[camelll]

No you believe what you want. That wiki entry is not reliable because: "It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since July 2008.
It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since July 2008."

No one has been able to verify the claims and if it has no references to back up its claims then it is a moot point.

People that are selling you products are out to make money, not to give you the best advice possible. Again if a cai did not affect emissions then why would carb bother with it? You can believe what you want I have no benefit from telling you this. An easy way to prove this about a company is to dyno your car with your stock box on and then put the cai on and dyno it again. You are not going to get 5 hp from your intake. Do you have a cai or a sri?