finally found the 5w-20 TSB... - Page 5 - Toyota Yaris Forums

TheSilkySmooth · 03-05-2010, 10:35 PM

I have seen Motul 5w-30 with a BMW LL-01 spec. I think its marketed as X-MAX currently.

sbergman27 · 03-07-2010, 01:08 AM

Yeah, I had wondered about the vvt-i wrt viscosity. It's one of those little gotcha's that is easy to overlook, and an example of why I'm somewhat disinclined to stray very far from the recommendations. You just never know what esoteric details got discussed during the engine design meetings that you were not invited to. Engines (and oils) have gotten so complicated since when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s and we all just dumped 10w40 into our engines and swore by whichever brand we'd always used.

Though I've tried to keep up through reading, the Yaris is my first foray into current technology on a hands-on basis. I tend to keep my cars for a very long time. My other cars are two 1968 Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams, which I grew up with, and my trusty 1988 Chevy Sprint Metro (really a Suzuki) which is about to turn over 350,000 miles. The Sprint is actually carbureted. Though it *is* an electronic feedback carb, so it has many of the advantages of FI. (Including DFCO, BTW.) But it doesn't support the fun toys like the Scangauge II.

-Steve

sbergman27 · 03-09-2010, 07:12 AM

BTW, does anyone happen to know where one can actually *purchase* the Pennzoil Euro Ultra 5w30 product in the US. I'm in Oklahoma City and am having problems locating any.

Hershey · 03-09-2010, 10:46 AM

WAL-MART may have it . When I called PENNZOIL about the ULTRA he said it was at WAL-MART in TEXAS . So , you being in that region it may be sitting on a shelf . Call them in advance and get directed to AUTOMOTIVE department to see if in stock .

Hershey · 03-09-2010, 10:48 AM

so you plan on using the 5w-30 EURO Ultra for your YARIS ?

sbergman27 · 03-09-2010, 12:12 PM

Walmart carries the Ultra product. But doesn't seem to carry the Euro Ultra, which is the really interesting one of the two. I dropped by Autozone, where they don't have it either. But noticed a Castrol 0w30 Syntech European formula, which meets BMW LL-01, VW 502 00, and others.

Yes, after considering TheSilkySmooth's comments, and after returning from a long mountainous trip over which the cruise control kept wanting to floor the accelerator climbing hills at 75 MPH on the Interstates (thus downshifting the transmission, and running the RPMs up as high as 5100) I'm not averse to considering a non-GF4, higher HTHS oil.

-Steve Bergman

Thus far, this is the most I've been able to find out about the Castrol European Formula product. It's the 0w30 listed on this sheet. I'm looking for more information now:

http://tinyurl.com/637zyy

sbergman27 · 03-10-2010, 01:14 PM

Well, I queried the Castrol folks and got an interesting response. The HTHS value of their oil is considered to be "proprietary information". (No doubt it relates to national security in some very sensitive way.)

================

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

With regard to your request below, please see the Product Data Sheet and
MSDS for our Castrol Syntec 0w-30. Unfortunately information that is not
provided on our data sheets is considered proprietary.
If you require information regarding what oil to use in your vehicle, please
advise the year make and model and we will be happy to assist you with a
product recommendation.

Castrol Consumer Relations
1-800-462-0835

-----Original Message-----
What is the HTHS rating of the Castrol Syntec
European Formula 0w30 product? Its conformance to the ACEA A3 spec means
that it is at least 3.5. But I'm curious what the actual value is.

TheSilkySmooth · 03-11-2010, 10:52 AM

You may find the 0w-30 a bit too viscous. Over much experimentation the engine seems happiest (power/mileage) with an oil between 10 and 11 cst more to the 10.5and HTHS over 3.0 mPas but somewhat less than 3.5. Now the engine many times will not acheive a 100C sump so the viscosity will be higher in use. I wish I could get a "high mileage" oil and its attendant higher viscosity and HTHS without the seal swell agents they add to the package. After my continuing experiment with HD oils, I do not discount the qualitative effect of high phosphorous in the oil package - it REALLY subjectivly smooths out the engine moreso than any new GF4 formulation using Boron, MolyDTC or Sodium organometallics.

sbergman27 · 03-11-2010, 11:21 AM

At 12.1 cst, it certainly is a thick 30wt. However, I really think that the HTHS number is the more significant wrt fuel economy. Temperatures between the actual working surfaces are going to be hight than sump, and more in line with the HTHS test temperature than the cst temp. I would imagine that the cst is more pertinent to the vvt-i system (which I'm not yet that familiar with). Would you expect to see any problem there at 12.1?

Regarding the HTHS... it really all boils down to whether there are really measurable anti-wear benefits to high HTHS in this class of engine and service. If there are, then trading wear for FE is a bad trade. I say that despite the fact that I care a great deal about FE, because the FE difference is just not large enough to matter. And an earlier engine rebuild represents a substantial consumption of resources, which must be factored into the total environmental impact.

I think it is interesting that in the US, where manufacturers like to run right up to the limit of their allowed CAFE, GF-4 oils are considered a good trade off, whereas in Europe, where the manufacturers leave themselves some CAFE breathing room regarding their US products, they do *not* consider GF-4 to be a good trade off.

-Steve

R2D2 · 03-13-2010, 11:05 PM

Steve,

The only HTHS data I've seen on the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 (aka German Castrol, or GC) is several years old but I doubt it has changed much-3.45

R2

sbergman27 · 03-15-2010, 04:17 AM

Thanks R2D2. I suspect it's pretty close to that. Of course, it does have to be at least 3.50 to meet the specs it currently does.

Another oil which has come to my attention is M1 ESP Formula 5w30. It an ACEA A3 oil that meets pretty much the same impressive list of specs as the German Castrol. It has the same, thick for a 30, 100C cst of 12.1. And an HTHS of 3.58.

http://tinyurl.com/yczowm6

http://tinyurl.com/y9p3ale

-Steve

sbergman27 · 03-16-2010, 05:14 PM

Well, well. I got an interesting response back from Pennzoil/Shell regarding the availability of Euro Ultra:

=======

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your inquiry.

The Pennzoil Platinum Euro Ultra 5W-30 engine oil (Stock# 5063827) is
only available in a 55 gallon drum. The Pennzoil Platinum Euro-Ultra
Diesel 5W-30 engine oil (stock # 550016921) is available in quarts
as well as a 55 gallon drum. Given the stock numbers any retail auto
parts stores that carry the Pennzoil product line should be able to
order this product. Another alternative would be to contact a
Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State distributor for these products. The
closest distributor appears to be Windward Petroleum located in
Oklahoma City, phone number 405-236-5334.

Best Regards,
Technical Service - RM

=======

Where in my apartment would the 55 gallon drum go best, I wonder? Next to the sofa? In the kitchen? Maybe in the downstairs bath, in front of the toilet? (I could put the toilet paper on it.) Or perhaps as an entryway table? I wonder what color it is?

-Steve

Hershey · 03-17-2010, 12:09 AM

here's a V.O.A. of the PENNZOIL ULTRA at BOB IS THE OIL GUY , http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...10#Post1778710 . Wonder how comparable the 5w-30 would be

.

sbergman27 · 03-23-2010, 01:10 PM

OK. I have a theory about this odd TSB in which they announced intentions which, 4 years later, they never seem to have acted upon. I ran into this interesting UOA on the BITOG site for a 2007 Yaris factory fill at 1100 miles:

http://tinyurl.com/yjpnz4y

Note the 100C cSt value of 7.9

And then refer to this chart and table:

http://tinyurl.com/qqldw

This factory fill was clearly an Xw20 oil.

So my theory is that they want the EPA to test the car with Xw20 oil, to get slightly better numbers. But just doing a factory fill with that, without clearing Xw20 for use by owners is likely not kosher with EPA policies, so they had to OK it somewhere. But... they really would prefer that most warrantied cars use the 5w30 for superior protection. So... they OK'd 5w20 in the least conspicuous place possible, an obscure TSB, while leaving the 5w30 recommendation in the owners manuals and on the filler caps.

Sound reasonable?

-Steve

1stToyota · 03-23-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbergman27

OK. I have a theory about this odd TSB in which they announced intentions which, 4 years later, they never seem to have acted upon. I ran into this interesting UOA on the BITOG site for a 2007 Yaris factory fill at 1100 miles:

http://tinyurl.com/yjpnz4y

Note the 100C cSt value of 7.9

And then refer to this chart and table:

http://tinyurl.com/qqldw

This factory fill was clearly an Xw20 oil.

So my theory is that they want the EPA to test the car with Xw20 oil, to get slightly better numbers. But just doing a factory fill with that, without clearing Xw20 for use by owners is likely not kosher with EPA policies, so they had to OK it somewhere. But... they really would prefer that most warrantied cars use the 5w30 for superior protection. So... they OK'd 5w20 in the least conspicuous place possible, an obscure TSB, while leaving the 5w30 recommendation in the owners manuals and on the filler caps.

Sound reasonable?

-Steve

Sounds reasonable. I've always thought that lighter oils were more about what's good for mpg and less about what's good for the motor.

Hershey · 03-23-2010, 11:06 PM

glad I've always changed the factory fill at 1,000 > 1,500 miles and then again at around 2,000 > 3,000 miles later , and the rest go for about the 5,000 mile interval using a 5w-30 synthetic for each . Did try Pennzoil PLATINUM 5w-20 for '08 sedan after seeing the approval and the engine seemed a bit noisy . So , dumped it about 2,000 later miles and went back to 5w-30 .

sbergman27 · 03-23-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hershey

Did try Pennzoil PLATINUM 5w-20 for '08 sedan and the engine seemed a bit noisy . So , dumped it about 2,000 later miles and went back to 5w-30 .

BTW, I did run the Castrol 0w30 European Formula, AKA "German Castrol" for 4,000 miles. (I drive a lot, so that was less than 2 weeks, I think.) But... I got to looking into things like its lack of SM certification. It's still on SL. (SM was released in 2004.) It more than meets the engine protection requirements of SM. But not the low SAPS requirement. So it may not be so good for the catalytic converter. Fantastic oil for protecting the engine, it seems. But with a possible trade-off.

I also looked into M1 ESP Formula, a nice A3 5w30 oil which looks great. But... it's unclear as to whether it might have issues with US fuels. The story is that there is a possible problem with its completely different additive formula (replacing ZDDP with something else, etc.) and E10 gasoline. Nothing definite. Just rumor. And I'm always *very* suspicious of rumors about E10 because there is so very much absolute *crap* word-of-mouth disinformation floating around about ethanol. (Don't get me started!) And a fellow on BITOG, who happened to be an engineer, made the very reasonable point that Mobile 1 ESP (Emission System Protection) formula was a product designed under additional constraints, beyond those constraints under which other oils are designed. And that additional restraints usually mean additional compromises. These are things that make you go "Hmmmm...." :-/

M1 0w40 European Formula looks great with its A3 *and* SM certifications... but there are those nebulous rumors floating around about our vvt-i systems being affected by out of spec viscosity oils.

And after much gnashing of brain and teeth, I decided that I'm really not smart enough to second guess the recommendations of the experienced and knowledgeable engineers at Toyota who designed this engine. Am I focusing too much upon one thing and forgetting something else? Am I completely ignorant of some critically important thing? I could check out any of these things that I've mentioned. But what about the things I *don't even know about* yet?

Oh... I'm still suspicious of the whole Xw20 bit. And note that we haven't gotten a "Hear ye! Hear ye!" regarding its use in these engines.

But I'm back to an M1 Xw30 oil with ILSAC GF4 and SM certifications, like a good little boy. And I suspect that's probably the prudent thing to do.

Is dreaming about oil threads a sign of deteriorating mental health, I wonder?

-Steve

Hershey · 03-24-2010, 12:24 AM

may consider the 5w-20 when it's stamped on the oil cap .

03-13-2010, 11:05 PM	#82
R2D2 Crazy Oil Sniffer Drives: MM 09 Yaris 5 Dr LB "Click" Join Date: May 2009 Location: ME Posts: 498	Steve, The only HTHS data I've seen on the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 (aka German Castrol, or GC) is several years old but I doubt it has changed much-3.45 R2 __________________ "The howl was the sound of God’s casting pot, the morphing of my cells into shape, the forming of oceans out of molten premordial plasma. And I could feel it. I could cry for it. I could cry with it." -The Fitful One

03-15-2010, 04:17 AM	#83
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	Thanks R2D2. I suspect it's pretty close to that. Of course, it does have to be at least 3.50 to meet the specs it currently does. Another oil which has come to my attention is M1 ESP Formula 5w30. It an ACEA A3 oil that meets pretty much the same impressive list of specs as the German Castrol. It has the same, thick for a 30, 100C cst of 12.1. And an HTHS of 3.58. http://tinyurl.com/yczowm6 http://tinyurl.com/y9p3ale -Steve Last edited by sbergman27; 03-15-2010 at 04:33 AM.

03-23-2010, 11:06 PM	#88
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	glad I've always changed the factory fill at 1,000 > 1,500 miles and then again at around 2,000 > 3,000 miles later , and the rest go for about the 5,000 mile interval using a 5w-30 synthetic for each . Did try Pennzoil PLATINUM 5w-20 for '08 sedan after seeing the approval and the engine seemed a bit noisy . So , dumped it about 2,000 later miles and went back to 5w-30 . Last edited by Hershey; 03-23-2010 at 11:44 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
TSB for steering pull?	vst	DIY / Maintenance / Service	12	06-09-2007 02:40 PM
Finally!	KittenRD	New YARIS Purchase Forum	6	01-01-2007 09:16 PM
Finally installed oem ebay fog light for hatchback	Adriaan	General Yaris / Vitz Discussion	6	12-27-2006 04:24 PM
finally found a good product to clean al plastic parts	Adriaan	Wash, Wax, Detailing, Exterior Repairs	4	12-01-2006 02:45 PM
It's finally here!	Cathy	New YARIS Purchase Forum	10	08-29-2006 10:08 AM

03-07-2010, 01:08 AM	#74
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	Yeah, I had wondered about the vvt-i wrt viscosity. It's one of those little gotcha's that is easy to overlook, and an example of why I'm somewhat disinclined to stray very far from the recommendations. You just never know what esoteric details got discussed during the engine design meetings that you were not invited to. Engines (and oils) have gotten so complicated since when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s and we all just dumped 10w40 into our engines and swore by whichever brand we'd always used. Though I've tried to keep up through reading, the Yaris is my first foray into current technology on a hands-on basis. I tend to keep my cars for a very long time. My other cars are two 1968 Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams, which I grew up with, and my trusty 1988 Chevy Sprint Metro (really a Suzuki) which is about to turn over 350,000 miles. The Sprint is actually carbureted. Though it is an electronic feedback carb, so it has many of the advantages of FI. (Including DFCO, BTW.) But it doesn't support the fun toys like the Scangauge II. -Steve

03-09-2010, 07:12 AM	#75
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	BTW, does anyone happen to know where one can actually purchase the Pennzoil Euro Ultra 5w30 product in the US. I'm in Oklahoma City and am having problems locating any.

03-09-2010, 10:46 AM	#76
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	WAL-MART may have it . When I called PENNZOIL about the ULTRA he said it was at WAL-MART in TEXAS . So , you being in that region it may be sitting on a shelf . Call them in advance and get directed to AUTOMOTIVE department to see if in stock .

03-09-2010, 10:48 AM	#77
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	so you plan on using the 5w-30 EURO Ultra for your YARIS ?

03-09-2010, 12:12 PM	#78
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	Walmart carries the Ultra product. But doesn't seem to carry the Euro Ultra, which is the really interesting one of the two. I dropped by Autozone, where they don't have it either. But noticed a Castrol 0w30 Syntech European formula, which meets BMW LL-01, VW 502 00, and others. Yes, after considering TheSilkySmooth's comments, and after returning from a long mountainous trip over which the cruise control kept wanting to floor the accelerator climbing hills at 75 MPH on the Interstates (thus downshifting the transmission, and running the RPMs up as high as 5100) I'm not averse to considering a non-GF4, higher HTHS oil. -Steve Bergman Thus far, this is the most I've been able to find out about the Castrol European Formula product. It's the 0w30 listed on this sheet. I'm looking for more information now: http://tinyurl.com/637zyy

03-10-2010, 01:14 PM	#79
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	Well, I queried the Castrol folks and got an interesting response. The HTHS value of their oil is considered to be "proprietary information". (No doubt it relates to national security in some very sensitive way.) ================ Thank you for contacting Castrol North America. With regard to your request below, please see the Product Data Sheet and MSDS for our Castrol Syntec 0w-30. Unfortunately information that is not provided on our data sheets is considered proprietary. If you require information regarding what oil to use in your vehicle, please advise the year make and model and we will be happy to assist you with a product recommendation. Castrol Consumer Relations 1-800-462-0835 -----Original Message----- What is the HTHS rating of the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0w30 product? Its conformance to the ACEA A3 spec means that it is at least 3.5. But I'm curious what the actual value is.

03-11-2010, 10:52 AM	#80
TheSilkySmooth Drives: 08 3DR 5M Bayou Blue; 09 Fos Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 622	You may find the 0w-30 a bit too viscous. Over much experimentation the engine seems happiest (power/mileage) with an oil between 10 and 11 cst more to the 10.5and HTHS over 3.0 mPas but somewhat less than 3.5. Now the engine many times will not acheive a 100C sump so the viscosity will be higher in use. I wish I could get a "high mileage" oil and its attendant higher viscosity and HTHS without the seal swell agents they add to the package. After my continuing experiment with HD oils, I do not discount the qualitative effect of high phosphorous in the oil package - it REALLY subjectivly smooths out the engine moreso than any new GF4 formulation using Boron, MolyDTC or Sodium organometallics.

03-11-2010, 11:21 AM	#81
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	At 12.1 cst, it certainly is a thick 30wt. However, I really think that the HTHS number is the more significant wrt fuel economy. Temperatures between the actual working surfaces are going to be hight than sump, and more in line with the HTHS test temperature than the cst temp. I would imagine that the cst is more pertinent to the vvt-i system (which I'm not yet that familiar with). Would you expect to see any problem there at 12.1? Regarding the HTHS... it really all boils down to whether there are really measurable anti-wear benefits to high HTHS in this class of engine and service. If there are, then trading wear for FE is a bad trade. I say that despite the fact that I care a great deal about FE, because the FE difference is just not large enough to matter. And an earlier engine rebuild represents a substantial consumption of resources, which must be factored into the total environmental impact. I think it is interesting that in the US, where manufacturers like to run right up to the limit of their allowed CAFE, GF-4 oils are considered a good trade off, whereas in Europe, where the manufacturers leave themselves some CAFE breathing room regarding their US products, they do not consider GF-4 to be a good trade off. -Steve

03-16-2010, 05:14 PM	#84
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	Well, well. I got an interesting response back from Pennzoil/Shell regarding the availability of Euro Ultra: ======= Dear Steve, Thank you for your inquiry. The Pennzoil Platinum Euro Ultra 5W-30 engine oil (Stock# 5063827) is only available in a 55 gallon drum. The Pennzoil Platinum Euro-Ultra Diesel 5W-30 engine oil (stock # 550016921) is available in quarts as well as a 55 gallon drum. Given the stock numbers any retail auto parts stores that carry the Pennzoil product line should be able to order this product. Another alternative would be to contact a Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State distributor for these products. The closest distributor appears to be Windward Petroleum located in Oklahoma City, phone number 405-236-5334. Best Regards, Technical Service - RM ======= Where in my apartment would the 55 gallon drum go best, I wonder? Next to the sofa? In the kitchen? Maybe in the downstairs bath, in front of the toilet? (I could put the toilet paper on it.) Or perhaps as an entryway table? I wonder what color it is? -Steve

03-17-2010, 12:09 AM	#85
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	here's a V.O.A. of the PENNZOIL ULTRA at BOB IS THE OIL GUY , http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...10#Post1778710 . Wonder how comparable the 5w-30 would be .

03-23-2010, 01:10 PM	#86
sbergman27 Drives: 2008 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 323	OK. I have a theory about this odd TSB in which they announced intentions which, 4 years later, they never seem to have acted upon. I ran into this interesting UOA on the BITOG site for a 2007 Yaris factory fill at 1100 miles: http://tinyurl.com/yjpnz4y Note the 100C cSt value of 7.9 And then refer to this chart and table: http://tinyurl.com/qqldw This factory fill was clearly an Xw20 oil. So my theory is that they want the EPA to test the car with Xw20 oil, to get slightly better numbers. But just doing a factory fill with that, without clearing Xw20 for use by owners is likely not kosher with EPA policies, so they had to OK it somewhere. But... they really would prefer that most warrantied cars use the 5w30 for superior protection. So... they OK'd 5w20 in the least conspicuous place possible, an obscure TSB, while leaving the 5w30 recommendation in the owners manuals and on the filler caps. Sound reasonable? -Steve

03-24-2010, 12:24 AM	#90
Hershey Drives: 08 Yaris sedan auto / Fit auto Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: northeast Posts: 2,897	may consider the 5w-20 when it's stamped on the oil cap .