24mm FRONT swaybars in stock

[cali yaris]

I have sourced a very nice front sway bar for us from a very good Taiwan manufacturer. It looks just like the C-One sway bar, powdercoated red, and comes with the same rubber bushings. Note: Stiffening the front of the car without stiffening the rear will increase understeer.

C-One front sway bar $352+ (ouch)

TigerTec sway bar: $249 shipped (USA)

[pics go here when I remember my camera, doh]

C-One bar:

[Loren]

You got it backwards, bro. Stiffening the front without stiffening the rear will increase undesteer... a lot. But, it will reduce body roll and improve steering response. And it's shiny and red.

That's all I'm gonna say.

[YarisSedan]

So what if you have a TRD bar will this compliment it nicely. I like the sound of less bodyroll and increased steering response =). Plus will go well with my new adjustable swaybarlinks

[YarisSedan]

Seriousely i have to set money aside for whenver garm comes out with a new item.

[cali yaris]

hehe, good catch Loren -- I meant to say understeer -- I swear.

It is very shiny, and very red.

[fuji]

It seems the only advantage to increasing the front sway bar is decreasing roll a bit. How big is the stock and what type of negatives might this bar have in the turns???

[cali yaris]

I have no idea what the stock front sway bar size is, but I can measure it tomorrow.

The only negative is that by increasing front stiffness, you increase the chance of understeer.

My car actually has some oversteer with my set up at this point (coilovers + thick rear torsion/sway bar + lighter weight in the rear), so using this front sway bar should head me back towards neutral steering, while decreasing roll at the same time. That will be an improvement.

Lots of factors play into tuning a suspension, including simple stuff like tire pressure.

[fuji]

Sounds good. For those that like a bit of oversteer, I guess we could just make the rear bar even thicker - How about 26-28mm????? Even less body roll.

I wonder if there is a easy way of modifying the TRD sway bar to be even stiffer than it is now.

[cali yaris]

A bar is a bar, you really can't modify it. The 23mm rear bar I sell is the thickest on the planet for the Yaris.

A few other ways to increase oversteer/decrease understeer:

stiffer rear springs
softer front springs
more rear tire pressure
less front tire pressure
less rear weight
negative front wheel camber

and I'm sure there are about a dozen more ways to tune a suspension. Loren?

[YarisSedan]

Why not just put on 2 rear swaybars =) You could easily make the TRD swaybar and ultra racing work together

[Split]

i dont think adding a front sway bar will increase understeer. it just decreases oversteer.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

and I'm sure there are about a dozen more ways to tune a suspension. Loren?

You hit most of them. Lots of things you can adjust. But, you really don't want me in this thread, Garm.

[Sabretooth]

As for the part resembling a C-one part...It wouldnt shock me.

C-one has a history of having other companies make parts for them...slap their logo or name on it, sell at a 50% higher price than origional. Hence why the C-one shocks/struts look VERY similar to KYB AGX shocks/struts.

TRD does the same thing here, but doesnt upcharge that much.

[whooppee777]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

The only negative is that by increasing front stiffness, you increase the chance of understeer.

unless u have an LSD

[cali yaris]

touche Loren, but you know there IS a time and a place for a front sway bar. We'd probably come close to agreeing when that is, too.

LSD.... mmmmm

[Split]

mmmmm TRDv4 ?

[Loren]

The place for a big front swaybar is on the front of a RWD car. :)

I'm not so sure that an LSD on a FWD car is going to make it need at bigger front bar. It's still a FWD car, and the LSD doesn't change that, nor does it change the balance of the car. In fact, an LSD can actually make a FWD car understeer MORE if there is insufficient grip (or an excess of power). Same thing happens in RWD cars, I experienced it in my Miatas. An open diff Miata in the rain is pretty tame as long as you don't dump the clutch and break both tires loose. A Miata with a Torsen in the rain wants to go sideways unless you have REALLY good rain tires on it.

A good LSD (like a Torsen) will, when one wheel loses traction, apply more torque to the other wheel rather than spinning the loose wheel, like an open diff would. But, in conditions of insufficient grip on BOTH drive wheels (or mondo power), it will simply spin BOTH wheels! If we're talking FWD, you've just entered the massive understeer zone.

Anybody want to explain to me how a larger front swaybar will help that situation? Personally, I think you'd want an EVEN LARGER rear bar, to transfer even more weight to the outside front and try to get it to bite. But, that's just me.

(I tried to stay out of this... but it's just too good to stay out of...)

My buddy's Sentra SE-R (Spec V, ABC, XYZ) that I've logged a lot of miles in (highway, track, autocross, and even dirt) has about 180 hp, buckets of torque, and an LSD. I've experienced exactly what I discussed above in that car. Absolutely hated driving that car before we installed the rear swaybar on it. Wouldn't dream of putting a bigger front swaybar on it.

More anecdotes... I've actually DONE the large front bar on a FWD car thing. It was the FIRST mod I did to my Saturn back when I started autocrossing and I didn't know any better. The part was available, was legal for stock class (which I was in at the time), and was cheap, so I bought it. I then spent the next 3 years tuning the rest of the suspension to combat the understeer that was CAUSED by that mistake! In the end, I found ways to make it work, but it took a ridiculously large rear swaybar (so big that it bent stock end link brackets), and some pretty scary toe out on the rear to get there. Live and learn, as they say.

If you "gotta have" a big front bar, then this is the bar for you. As I said in my first post, "it's shiny and red", and that's all that matters to a LOT of people. If you equate the complete lack of body roll and instantaneous steering response with good handling (whether handling is ACTUALLY improved or not), then this is the bar for you. But, if you're building a car that you want to actually corner as well as it possibly can... well, I'm not gonna say it.

Buy Garm's parts!

[cali yaris]

Dan Gardner, Scion tC, NASA Nationals, 1st place. FWD + LSD + front/rear swaybars.

My Scion tC: H&R coilovers + Hotchkis front and rear sway bars, front full soft, rear full hard = nearly spot on neutral corning. Danny McKeever's comment when instructing in my car: "Very nice set up, almost neutral, rear comes around really good".

Like I said, when the suspension is tuned to incorporate it, it is both useful and used.