Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Yup, sister-in-law is looking to dump her Aveo, which she lovingly titles, "the POS"...

As far as the UAW is concerned, it would be wise to see why things are so rancorous in the US plants before blaming UAW, or any other union. Management yowls about giving up another raise, or a necessary benefit, but is perfectly happy to gouge another few million out of the company for their incompetent leadership.

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

[bobby]

I thought GM went out of business....

[Bob_VT]

Originally Posted by bobby

I thought GM went out of business....

GMAC is shutting down the lending ..... ALL lending.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

If top management was limited to 20 times the lowest wage in the plant, only then would progress be made. I ain't holding my breath.

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

[bobby]

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....

[tuckevalastin]

Originally Posted by bobby

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by tuckevalastin

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

Not to be a pedantic pain the butt, but the Matrix/Vibe is partially made in the US. The subcomponents are all Toyota and are mostly "globally sourced".

I know this because my employer offers a discount for cars made by their customers. The Unified Plant in Fremont happens to be one of the few places in the US where my employer does not supply subcomponents and hence I would not get a discount.

Gene

[bobby]

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars


I guess I should clarify: I only want to buy cars that are made/designed in Japan. I only want to buy cars made by Toyota, Honda, Lexus (in my dreams!)

The fact that GM feels comfortable to put their badge on the Aveo, (complete piece of junk, reminds me of a modern-day Chevette) makes me want to RUN from ever buying anything from GM. Why would they want the Chevy name on such a junky car??

BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE!

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by talnlnky

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

Okay, fine, I agree.

Here's my question in reply - whose business is it if the CEO of GM makes 100 or a 1,000 times more than the contract janitors who clean the offices each day? Don't the shareholders of GM, the real owners, have that say?

If you're gonna say that it's about capitalism you cannot dictate salaries, especially the Government.

Besides, America isn't about capitalism. The recent Bank Bail Out is proof of that. We're about Lawyer Capitalism, as Buckminster Fuller put it so well. By that he meant that Corporations entrench themselves into a market and then use the power of Law to keep competitors down or out.

If GM could have stopped Toyota in its tracks like they did Preston Tucker there would be no Yaris. Instead Toyota keeps on knocking them out of the park - except for the oil sludge issue in some motors - and GM is now in second place and fading. The real capitalism, flawed as it is, is in the International Market. For now.

Gene

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Tamago

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

All of the folks I've talked to who knew folks who worked for Toyota said that competition to work there was fierce and that they were quite proud to work for Toyota.

If you plan to complain about "Karoshi" let me remind you that MANY OF US out here work long hours to satisfy our customers. I put twelve hours of OT in last week, probably that many this week. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Gene