Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[TLyttle]

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts. Either way, the US auto industry loses.

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management". OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple. The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it. Most Japanese companies do.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts.

Apparently you've never been in a Union or barring that weren't out of one long enough to realize their "rap".

Unions thrive on discontent, and if there is none some will be provided. One Union, I believe the IBEW, used to distribute a book called the "Troublemaker's Guide". Literally a Bible on how to stoke discontent, hobble production and create the kind of antagonism needed to entrench a Union.

During a recent "organization attempt" where I work the biggest malcontents were the union boosters. They figured once the union got in they would get "super seniority" since they would run for union president.


The "Management Arriving in Jaguars" is a red herring, more so since at GM you are strongly discouraged from buying other maker's wares.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

In that case, since we "need Health Care" why not provide every American with guaranteed housing and three meals a day? Add to this guaranteed Veterinary Care and we're treating American citizens like livestock.


Seriously... I worked in kidney dialysis in the US. I've seen the Promised Land. Kidney Dialysis is a human right in the US. Nobody, whether they have a million in the bank or don't have a pot to piss in, get their turn.

The patients sit at most a few feet from one another. They are packed in like sardines most of the time. Since the dialysis machines are computer controlled you cannot use cell phones or computers.

Watch TV, maybe read a book, or lay there. You may not sleep since you could die under treatment.

Ventilation tends to be poor because ambient temps are important to keep the machines warm and the patients stable. So if someone shits themselves you will smell it. Someone dies you will see it. If someone starts to rant, and most clinics have at least one "screamer" you will hear it.

You will see the doctor at most twice a week, for a few minutes. Clinics are required to have a dietitian and social worker. In one clinic where I worked the Social Worker was written up for counseling patients - he was rejoined that his job was to push government services onto the patients, not be there to counsel them.

What used to get me slapping my knees with amusement was the dietitian advising patients to "put another streak on the grill" in order to increase their protein (the machines rip that out of you). Nobody told the poor thing that most kidney dialysis patients do not work (it's an instant SSI check) and most cannot afford steak on a daily basis.

DOQI guidelines requires "holds" on Epoetin Alpha to keep the hematocrit below normal. This is to ensure a minimal destruction of red blood cells. Forget any strenuous activity, you can't handle it. I've watched patients argue with nurses over such holds, which must be enforced since the clinic won't get reimbursed for the EPO if they go above DOQI guidelines.

EPO costs ninety bucks a dose. The courts have ruled that the company that makes it, AMgen, has a defacto monopoly in the US. Transkaryotics, which makes a version of epoetin alpha, did not have Amgen's lawyers.

You are limited to 32 ounces of fluid per day, including your food. This low intake is to balance out the fluids. You will ALWAYS be thirsty. If you "fluid abuse" you will be "pulled on" with the machine and will cramp. The cramps are excruciatingly painful.

You can't even die with dignity. When you "code" you'll be ripped out of your chair, tossed on the floor and "worked" right in front of everyone.

I live in horror of such a "system" on a nationwide basis.


To really get me raging, ask me about my trevails in getting a new kind of data base to analyze trends of dialyser use. In order to use it I had to obtain an FDA 503c certificate, which I could not afford. I also would have had to obtain liability insurance, which I also could not afford.

There is a reason that US medical services are so expensive - grotesque bureaucracy and Tort Lottery. Putting things onto Big Brother's billfold will not change these realities.


The vast majority of Americans have health insurance. Most of us are happy with it. Most of us rely upon it. Most of us don't want to exchange it for the equivalent of a shoddy, USSR type of medical service.

I also reject the notion that government provided health services are a "human right" and are "moral". What is immoral are the compromises that the American people accept, especially the Rent Seeking by Doctors, Lawyers and other "professionals" atop an FDA which is geared more towards Risk Aversion than Progress and growth of knowledge.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

My recognition comes to the bank twice a month. If I can't make that count what will a lump sum payment or pension do for me? Especially if I... retire. The horror!

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management".

We had an attempted Organization where I work. The vote was 25 percent for and 75 percent against. The management where I work are at times clueless and arrogant, that's their prerogative, they have to live with the consequences.

People voted against the Union not for the management.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple.

Attitude isn't as relevant as deeds. I've met workers who felt that managers were clueless, stupid, out of touch, and even "lacked souls". That did not affect their work, just how they related to managers.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it.

The "US System" is so diverse and varied that one cannot make such a generalization. One the most horrible places I ever worked was a fifty employee company. One of the best was a Fortune 10 company.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Most Japanese companies do.

Go look up "Karoshi". Loyalty works both ways.

Gene