Soda vs Cement

[BailOut]

Gene,

It is alway a challenge to debate with you. Not because of your intelligence but simply because you are so verbose. I always have to choose whether to go item for item with you and fill up several screens with quotes, or to just keep things general.

First let me say that you presume too much and know too little. Without going into a detailed biography I'll say that I grew up poor. Dirt poor. Patches on the knees, red beans, rice and tortillas, free school lunches and milk, etc. I used the military as a stepping stone, though my time there extracted a higher cost than I first realized. I never had the opportunity to go to college so I taught myself everything I know about IT by reading other people's books and by using their throwaway equipment. After 5 months of unemployment I drove out here to Reno on the last of our meager savings, which should have been used for the mortgage payment for the small house my wife and I had in Texas, to look for work. The gamble paid off. I got a good job that led to a great job, which is where I am now.

I commute the distance that I do because my company's main location is in an area that was already wealthy and is now outright exclusive, where no housing like trailers exists but if it did a single-wide on a dirt lot would start at $325,000. Besides, we bought my first house, using my VA loan guarantee, in Reno just 3 months before I was offered the position at Tahoe. There is nowhere effectively closer to live between my workplace and my place of residence.

I believe that you confuse advances to the human condition such as dry, warm, safe housing and electricity with the utter corruption of our food system. "Processed Cheese Food" is not an advance in food but a corruption of it. Organic food would not cost as much if it was all we had and would not seem as expensive if things like corn were no longer subsidized.

Have you noticed how obese the American poor are? We both know damn well it's not because they eat too much. It's because of what they eat, which in many cases barely qualifies as food.

As for vacations, this is the first time in my life that I have the opportunity, unless you consider the occasional authorized military leave. 35 years of nothing and now you would begrudge me this benefit, despite the fact that the only vacation I have taken that I could not drive to in less than a day was to see some family that I'd not seen in 16 years?!

You are reaching, my friend. Truly.

We do not have to kill ourselves or the planet in order to survive as a species.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I believe that you confuse advances to the human condition such as dry, warm, safe housing and electricity with the utter corruption of our food system. "Processed Cheese Food" is not an advance in food but a corruption of it.

I won't dispute that some of the food today is awful. I'm probably blessed in a perverse way because most of the processed food today has dairy products. I've already spoken my piece on animals, and I walk the talk by buying free range eggs for double the price of factory farmed ones.

White flour, white rice and other milled and processed grains are easier to store against famine than whole grain. Their milled products appeal more to consumers and are easier to prepare than their whole grain counterparts. They also represent a much older food technology than the horror show chemistry experiments that typify modern snacks and convenience foods.

How about, Brian, we draw the line at food technology circa 1930 or so, and call it even?

Originally Posted by BailOut

Organic food would not cost as much if it was all we had and would not seem as expensive if things like corn were no longer subsidized.

I strongly disagree. Organic food is expensive because organic methods tend to be labor intensive. Labor costs money. Chemicals, while at times pernicious, are applicable by machine.

I say that as a gardner, one who exclusively uses heirloom seeds because I believe that preserving genetic lines is important. I use netting, bacillus thuringia and lots of other organic techniques.

Do you garden, Brian, and if not, why not?

Originally Posted by BailOut

Have you noticed how obese the American poor are? We both know damn well it's not because they eat too much. It's because of what they eat, which in many cases barely qualifies as food.

You probably don't spend time with obese people, Brian. They tend eat a lot of junk, and in amazing quantities.

I think that organic food's only benefit would be to make food more expensive, which to me is not a benefit. I'm amazed that a man who grew up poor, and understands what it means to be poor, would begrudge people affordable food.

Originally Posted by BailOut

As for vacations, this is the first time in my life that I have the opportunity, unless you consider the occasional authorized military leave. 35 years of nothing and now you would begrudge me this benefit, despite the fact that the only vacation I have taken that I could not drive to in less than a day was to see some family that I'd not seen in 16 years?

I'm not begrudging you a single thing, Brian, though I am inviting you to be logically consistent about your beliefs. Even if you could afford it personally, can the planet afford to have you gallivanting about?

I realize that it's easier to simply regiment others, to make them buy organic foods by imposing a "fat tax" on "junk food" or making them abandon SUVs with a "gas guzzler tax" or even imposing "Carbon taxes" so that greedy Corporations will shoulder their "burden" of making the world fit again, than to make even a modest sacrifice of a privilege that is not enjoyed by most of the people alive today. I'm not saying that you want such laws but many Greens do.

Consider this if you will - in the past, when we ate organic foods and lived off of sustainable energy, renewables, wind and solar - most of us never traveled more than a few dozen miles from our homes. Long distance journeys were expensive mainly because of the labor requirements for transport, logistics and what have you. Most of our ancestors left their families behind elsewhere, sending only letters or a representative back home if at all.

Sometimes living a belief is difficult and frustrating. I understand this quite well as I run about like a maniac at work because I believe in what I'm doing, that it's a career and a calling for me rather than a source of a paycheck.

I'm not being harsh on you, but really, if you're going to criticize me for white flour how can you keep a straight face about vacations?

Gene

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by GeneW

... though I am inviting you to be logically consistent about your beliefs.

No, you are not, Gene. You, like a few others on this forum, are doing nothing but attempting to discredit me because I am not "Zero Impact Man". You apparently see no value whatsoever in personal-level or household-level conservation and I pity you - and the future of us all - for that.

Let's end this conversation now. Go on living your life the way you always have. I'll be here to clean up when you're gone.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by BailOut

No, you are not, Gene. You, like a few others on this forum, are doing nothing but attempting to discredit me because I am not "Zero Impact Man". You apparently see no value whatsoever in personal-level or household-level conservation and I pity you - and the future of us all - for that.

Let's end this conversation now. Go on living your life the way you always have. I'll be here to clean up when you're gone.

Wow, how does your ego fit into a Yaris?