Using the fan, heater

[colb]

I suppose a Yaris forum, if anywhere, would be the place where you'd expect to find people who can't get it through their heads that saving energy doesn't matter if you're not saving enough to notice.

Getting a tenth of a percent better gas mileage (like driving without DRLs during the day, or the fan on full blast, or using windshield wipers in the rain) just doesn't matter. It will not affect your wallet. It will not affect CO2 emissions. Does it really count as saving energy if there's no possible way you can ever notice it? Nope, not in the real world. If everybody saved a tenth of a percent of gas mileage, would it reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Nope.

This is often called "good engineering judgment" or alternatively "common sense."

[voodoo22]

Originally Posted by colb

I suppose a Yaris forum, if anywhere, would be the place where you'd expect to find people who can't get it through their heads that saving energy doesn't matter if you're not saving enough to notice.

Getting a tenth of a percent better gas mileage (like driving without DRLs during the day, or the fan on full blast, or using windshield wipers in the rain) just doesn't matter. It will not affect your wallet. It will not affect CO2 emissions. Does it really count as saving energy if there's no possible way you can ever notice it? Nope, not in the real world. If everybody saved a tenth of a percent of gas mileage, would it reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Nope.

This is often called "good engineering judgment" or alternatively "common sense."

Following this logic, will everyone please give me a tenth of a percent of their savings and salary?

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by colb

I suppose a Yaris forum, if anywhere, would be the place where you'd expect to find people who can't get it through their heads that saving energy doesn't matter if you're not saving enough to notice.

Getting a tenth of a percent better gas mileage (like driving without DRLs during the day, or the fan on full blast, or using windshield wipers in the rain) just doesn't matter. It will not affect your wallet. It will not affect CO2 emissions. Does it really count as saving energy if there's no possible way you can ever notice it? Nope, not in the real world. If everybody saved a tenth of a percent of gas mileage, would it reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Nope.

This is often called "good engineering judgment" or alternatively "common sense."

You completely missed out on the first tenet of engineering by failing to focus on the original problem. The original question was whether using these things uses more fuel, which it indeed does. The question was not whether it was worth worrying about or not.

Some people may not care but hypermilers strive to stretch every gallon of gasoline for all it is worth. 0.1% is a totally arbitrary number and may not sound like much but when you add it up over the course of your lifetime it becomes an easily trackable amount. For example, if you average 32 MPG then you use 0.03125 gallons per mile. If you drive 15,000 miles per year it requires 469 gallons of fuel. If you maintain this pattern from age 16 to age 75 it requires 27,656 gallons of fuel. 0.1% of that is 28 gallons, or 3 fill ups.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

You completely missed out on the first tenet of engineering by failing to focus on the original problem. The original question was whether using these things uses more fuel, which it indeed does. The question was not whether it was worth worrying about or not.

So when you use that turn signal the alternator instructs the fuel pump to give the engine some more fuel, because of the electrical load?

Some people may not care but hypermilers strive to stretch every gallon of gasoline for all it is worth. 0.1% is a totally arbitrary number and may not sound like much but when you add it up over the course of your lifetime it becomes an easily trackable amount. For example, if you average 32 MPG then you use 0.03125 gallons per mile. If you drive 15,000 miles per year it requires 469 gallons of fuel. If you maintain this pattern from age 16 to age 75 it requires 27,656 gallons of fuel. 0.1% of that is 28 gallons, or 3 fill ups.

Really? I don't know how many drops of fuel this will save per tank full, but what if I always remember to go to the bathroom before I get into the car...carrying that extra *payload* around has to give some kind of hit on the MPGs. Let's figure that I always remember to go before I go, for the next 30 years...

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

So when you use that turn signal the alternator instructs the fuel pump to give the engine some more fuel, because of the electrical load?

How many ways do you intend to ask the same question? No matter how many times you ask it or how many emotes you use or how much you wish it wasn't so the truth does not change. Energy is not free except in your imaginary world of serpentine belts in perpetual motion.

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

Really? I don't know how many drops of fuel this will save per tank full, but what if I always remember to go to the bathroom before I get into the car...carrying that extra *payload* around has to give some kind of hit on the MPGs. Let's figure that I always remember to go before I go, for the next 30 years...

That's not a bad idea at all. In fact it's the only sound idea I've ever seen you come up with. Though I think most people already do this as no one likes to travel while holding it.


It has become quite clear over the last week or so that you are not in this thread to learn or to contribute, but only to taunt others. I encourage you to find more effective ways to spend your time and energy.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

How many ways do you intend to ask the same question? No matter how many times you ask it or how many emotes you use or how much you wish it wasn't so the truth does not change. Energy is not free except in your imaginary world of serpentine belts in perpetual motion.

You're the numbers geek, so prove it. Saying that energy isn't free and that using headights or the wipers will somehow cause the engine to burn more fuel doesn't mean a thing unless you've got the numbers to prove it. Show me where running the fan on speed 3 burns more fuel than speed 2.

That's not a bad idea at all. In fact it's the only sound idea I've ever seen you come up with. Though I think most people already do this as no one likes to travel while holding it.

Yeah, 30-40 years from now I might have a whole extra $ or 2 to go crazy with.

It has become quite clear over the last week or so that you are not in this thread to learn or to contribute, but only to taunt others. I encourage you to find more effective ways to spend your time and energy.

NO, I'm here to see the proof behind your honking the horn just stole a little bit of fuel from the gas tank theories.

Maybe it's because you think using the A/C burns fuel because the clutch circuit is hot, but that's not the reason. It's the extra LOAD on the engine because an engaged compressor is harder to spin than a free-wheeling bearing (like when clutch isn't engaged).

[smacky]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

So when you use that turn signal the alternator instructs the fuel pump to give the engine some more fuel, because of the electrical load?




Really? I don't know how many drops of fuel this will save per tank full, but what if I always remember to go to the bathroom before I get into the car...carrying that extra *payload* around has to give some kind of hit on the MPGs. Let's figure that I always remember to go before I go, for the next 30 years...

I've yet to see any positive contribution you've made to any discussion you've participated in. It just seems like you look for any post by BailOut and you contradict it. How about you just stop posting on the fuel economy forum and any time BailOut says anything, we all just assume you've found some terribly witty way to disagree with him. Just go away.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by smacky

I've yet to see any positive contribution you've made to any discussion you've participated in. It just seems like you look for any post by BailOut and you contradict it. How about you just stop posting on the fuel economy forum and any time BailOut says anything, we all just assume you've found some terribly witty way to disagree with him. Just go away.

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes but I need proof before I'll believe that using the wipers will cause an engine to burn more fuel.

Yes, a belt driven fan burns fuel, a defective fan clutch burns fuel, and belt driven P/S pump burns fuel, but an electric fan and P/S pump burns fuel? I haven't seen proof, just theories that it does.

[otterhere]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes.

You made Smacky mad, girlfriend! Rude Smacky. Must we smack you, Smacky?

[colb]

Originally Posted by BailOut

You completely missed out on the first tenet of engineering by failing to focus on the original problem. The original question was whether using these things uses more fuel, which it indeed does. The question was not whether it was worth worrying about or not.

Some people may not care but hypermilers strive to stretch every gallon of gasoline for all it is worth. 0.1% is a totally arbitrary number and may not sound like much but when you add it up over the course of your lifetime it becomes an easily trackable amount. For example, if you average 32 MPG then you use 0.03125 gallons per mile. If you drive 15,000 miles per year it requires 469 gallons of fuel. If you maintain this pattern from age 16 to age 75 it requires 27,656 gallons of fuel. 0.1% of that is 28 gallons, or 3 fill ups.

No, the original question was along the lines of can you save fuel by not using the fan or heater. You say it wastes fuel. I say prove it. The difference is many times less than the margin of variability from tank to tank.
What is commonly referred to as "good engineering judgment" is focusing on reality, not theory. Theory says the fan uses gasoline, but reality will not back up that statement when the fan uses 10 watts and the car takes 10kW to cruise, while other random factors (humidity, temperature, wind, rain, payload, traffic) influencing mileage probably make up ten to a hundred times as much variability as you save by leaving the fan off.

Plus, you really just recommended that by not using the fan you can save 28 gallons of gas over 60 years.