Yaris Spanks Hybrids in Environmentally Friendliness in Dust to Dust report

[nsmitchell]

Excerpt from the report (page 47):

One thing is clear. The typical hybrid small vehicle such as the Prius is driven far fewer miles
each year than a comparably sized budget car. And for good reason. Like Upper Premium Sports
cars, these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or
short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods. Clearly both of
those are generalizations and there are exceptions, but nonetheless this is a reality of automotive
use.
Based on the average mileage and life expectancy, there is a wide range of years that certain
models will be on the road before being scrapped. This ranges from a low of 10 years to as much
as 20-plus years. As segments, the lowest number of years are Hybrid models as a group (12.1
years) while the highest segment is Premium SUVs such as the Range Rover and Hummer H2

(22.2 years).
End of Excerpt:

Please read page 48 of the report. It explains things a bit better.

Sometimes statistics aren't pretty and sometimes they expose weaknesses.

Read some Freakonomics for some real eye openers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by nsmitchell

One thing is clear. The typical hybrid small vehicle such as the Prius is driven far fewer miles each year than a comparably sized budget car. And for good reason. Like Upper Premium Sports cars, these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods.

This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.

As segments, the lowest number of years are Hybrid models as a group (12.1years) while the highest segment is Premium SUVs such as the Range Rover and Hummer H2

This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.

[Yaris Revenge]

Originally Posted by BailOut

This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.



This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.

BailOut, I agree with you that the Prius is more a household vehicle than anything else. I've never spotted a fleet Prius, and a hybrid as a secondary vehicle honestly makes no sense.

However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. How many 1970-1980 model Japanese cars do you see running around out there? Not nearly as many as you do American cars. I'm not saying one's better than the other, I'm just saying that people tend to hang on to the American cars longer (why I can't say), thus ultimately the American cars are the ones racking up the higher mileages.

~YR

[PetersRedYaris]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

...However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. ~YR

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

[spkrman]

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

x2...

This is why everyone tends to unload their cars before 100k, or swap it for a beater... yet if you have a toyota/etc you just keep on chuggin, you know it'll last another 100k without flinching.

btw by end cost... I'm sure a used, POS but good mechanical condition metro would lay the smack down on any hybrid or yaris :)

[Yaris Revenge]

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

Very, very possible. But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage?

~YR

[static808]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.



~YR

in my neck of the woods, most of the older cars (all the way from the 70s) are definitely american, and most of them are ford and chevy pickups. i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off. the influx of japanese cars really picked up heat when the automotive culture changed, and people in general started trading in their cars after 4-5 years. its really tough to generalize this topic though. from personal experience, most 10 year old cars i see are camrys and accords. however, if you get into the 15-20 year old car range, you start to see a bunch of cutlass supremes and le sabres. older than that, and you get into the ford pickup and classic vw bug range...

--B

[flint_mica_manual]

Originally Posted by static808

i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off.

--B

I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.

[PetersRedYaris]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.


Very, very possible. But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage?

~YR

Your right, you got me, I'm lying. When did I say old? I said high miles!