Shifting (A/T)

[eTiMaGo]

The way I understand it...

Manual shifting of an auto transmission is not a problem in theory. In fact, it should not cause any problems, most of the basic "sequential" boxes are just that, automatics with gear change overrides. (BMW's SMG and fancier sequentials are basically an automated manual gearbox, but I digress).

As with any other mechanical component, if you use it within its normal parameters, there should be no problem shifting an A/T. But, just like with anything else, problems arise when you abuse these normal operation parmeters. Auto transmissions are inherently less robust than manuals, coming in to a corner at speed and using ONLY the gearbox's downshift to slow yourself down is probably not a good idea.

Just like the manual Razr posted up above mentions, the main problem is overheating of the transmission.

So, the Cliff's Notes: A/T shifting? Not too much to worry about as long as you don't thrash the thing or force it to run in low gears excessively. Just like anything "fun" you can do with your car, there's the chance of it reducing the overall life of the vehicle.

[daq421]

Originally Posted by Razr

OK, Im reading the owner's manual and am seeing Toyota's recommendations on manual downshifting of the auto transmission.

I've attached it to save you the time of getting it out of your car.

Have a read of pages 112 and 113 (6 and 7 respectively in the PDF). 'Nuff said?

Which address exactly what I've been doing... My only comment was that the little car seems to respond very well to the tactic while engaged in spirited driving.

Thanks
-Peter

[Pavel Olavich]

Originally Posted by Spades

I haven't had experience with the automatic transmission used in the Yaris, but if it is like most auto trans I have had experience with, constantly shifting your auto trans like it is a manual generally leads to transmission failure sooner than leaving it in gear would.

I have been told not to do this by many people MUCH smarter than myself, and I have listened to their advice and have seen a couple cases where transmissions went bad at 30k miles from people using them like a manual gearbox.

To sum it all up, if you wanted a manual you shouldn't have bought a auto. The automatic transmission in your car was designed to shift at the right time to increase longevity of both the engine and transmission. From the performance side of it, I have yet to see a auto car run quicker times when shifted manual instead of leaving it in drive...its usually 1 second slower in the quarter mile by pretending your slushbox was a gearbox.

Tell this to Mitusbishi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda, Chyrsler, Nissan and even Toyota, all makes that provide models with "manually" siftable auto-transmissions, using paddles, and slide-slap selectors, etc.

Even in the Toyota Yaris manual for A/T, Toyota writes that up/down shifting the A/T is fine, they include this in our manuals for A/T, so long as it is done with in speed/gear constraints.

"Manually" shifting A/T's, when done right, will not lower the longevity of an A/T. However if done wrong, and over time, it could cause tranny failure in under 50,000 miles, or less, so if done right, no worries....if done wrong, you might have a huge tranny repair bill on your hands.

WASTE OF TIME? Not really. If done right downshifting/upshifting an A/T can be VERY beneficial, like coming into a turn with the desire to keep the rev's up, just to name one of MANY reasons to shift an A/T manually....doing this is very beneficial to sport driving, and even zipping around the highways, through traffic, etc...

[Pavel Olavich]

Originally Posted by [FR] Sébastien Loeb

AUTO TRAN = NO NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

MAUNAL TRAN = NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

CLEAR ENOUGH?

SORRY FRIEND, BUT YOUR RESPONSE IS SHOWING YOUR PROFOUND IGNORANCE OF DRIVING AN A/T....but I cut you slack, because A/T in Europe is not often used, and therefore people there really don't understanding manual shifting of A/T cars....but here in the states, we do....many of us do this...it can save on brakes, because manually shifting an A/T means one can use the engine as a brake, etc....

[Yaris Revenge]

From my own (very) limited experience, auto transmissions with the manual override (+/- shifter), SUCK. I've driven 2 different cars with this feature, and both of them took entirely to long to accomplish the task. I can't stand that delay between hitting the lever and the actual gearshift... drives me nuts, and useless for a sporty driving style. Plain old automatic shifting seems quicker.

And actually Pavel, he's very correct. All he said was manual, need to shift (obviously), and auto, no need, which is also true. What kind of weird ass trannys (don't get all excited now) do you play with over there that manuals DON'T have to be shifted and autos do?

~YR

[Pavel Olavich]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

From my own (very) limited experience, auto transmissions with the manual override (+/- shifter), SUCK. I've driven 2 different cars with this feature, and both of them took entirely to long to accomplish the task. I can't stand that delay between hitting the lever and the actual gearshift... drives me nuts, and useless for a sporty driving style. Plain old automatic shifting seems quicker.

And actually Pavel, he's very correct. All he said was manual, need to shift (obviously), and auto, no need, which is also true. What kind of weird ass trannys (don't get all excited now) do you play with over there that manuals DON'T have to be shifted and autos do?

~YR

When downshifting manually an A/T, bleeping the gas as you downshift will get it in gear RIGHT NOW! Manually down/up shifting an A/T is not as simple as moving the gear selector....you need to use your gas pedel too, depending....

[Yaris Revenge]

It IS that simple when it's built in. Hit "+", it upshifts, hit "-", and it downshifts. No gas adjustments are necessary. I believe you're talking about a standard auto, while I'm talking about the "manu-matics".

~YR

[Pavel Olavich]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

It IS that simple when it's built in. Hit "+", it upshifts, hit "-", and it downshifts. No gas adjustments are necessary. I believe you're talking about a standard auto, while I'm talking about the "manu-matics".

~YR

Think about it, when you downshift a manual transmision, one most often bleep the gas to rev-match, to make for a smooth downshift...the same is for A/T, regardless of the A/T type....

Think about this too: Most people that drive manual trannys don't know how to drive them properly. One more thing: Most people that manually shift an A/T don't know how to do it properly either.

For an A/T, when you hit the + or - selector, the tranny will not necessarily shift the gear UNLESS the tranny revs and the engine revs are happy with each other....this is the same thing when down shifting a manual...to save the clutch, to keep it smooth.

The fact that the A/T's that allow + and - manual gear changes is not responsive is the driver's fault, his ignorance of how to up/down shift an A/T properly...and not the car's fault.

[Spades]

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.

P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.

[Pavel Olavich]

Originally Posted by Spades

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.

P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.

So then at age 16 you blame the car, and hold yourself blamless for driver error?

Where is the personal responsability? Just admit it, your car probably failed because you were a 16 year old newbie that didn't know shit yet.

There are millions that manually shift their A/T's and have no issues with their A/T's 100,000+ miles later.

As for pressing the gas pedel during shifts, IT IS FOR DOWNSHIFTING, not UP shifting...I thought I made that clear...and gassing it during down shifting does NO harm to the A/T tranny....doing so during upshift can be bad however.

You keep twisting my words....coming into a corner, manually downshift the A/T while you gas it, to get it to drop NOW, and keep the rev's up as you make the corner....this is how pros drive AT's...this is nothing new, and this is the proper way to enter a corner with an AT....why do you think car makers allow the selectors to be manually placed in 3, 2, 1? Not just for getting out of snowy conditions...there are other reasons....stop twisting my words and learn ;-)

[daq421]

Originally Posted by Spades

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.


P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.

You know, I tried to be cool about your hostile and generally crappy attitude.. but thats over now.. You're not bringing anything to the discussion, only flatly stating your opinion as truth and when thats challanged getting all pissy. No one is yelling and hollering except you. So, feel free to leave all of us "assholes" trying to talk about this to it and find another thread to get all butt hurt over. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.
Oh and by the way, So you killed a A/T when you were 16.. I'm guessing that was no more than 5 years ago. Further you neglect to share what type of car it was, the condition, and whether you only down shifted into turns. All this tells me is a another teenager killed a car.. Whoopie, name me 2 teens that did not kill at least one car in some way or another as they learned to drive, thats why it's called "learning".

-Peter

[St_G]

There's no need for the discussion to eb this heated. Does anyone have any outside (i.e., non-message board) voices on the subject.

These were the main two I could find:

http://www.startribune.com/131/story/163720.html

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030806.htm

Several other message board threads too, but I think we've got enough of those sorts of voices going already, though they seemed to fall more on the "not causing any harm unless you do something really stupid" and "almost impossible to do something really stupid, because of rev limiters" variety than anything else.

Other links (especially those dealing less with engine breaking and more with keeping revs up to pull through a corner) are welcome. Perhaps someone else can find more than I did.

[Pavel Olavich]

a Rev limiter is not going to help if one downshifts wrong...doing it wrong can hurt your engine over time without red lining the tack....it's fine if it is done right...done wrong over time can shorten the life of the tranny and perhaps the engine too, stressing many parts.

[Spades]

Originally Posted by daq421

You know, I tried to be cool about your hostile and generally crappy attitude.. but thats over now.. You're not bringing anything to the discussion, only flatly stating your opinion as truth and when thats challanged getting all pissy. No one is yelling and hollering except you. So, feel free to leave all of us "assholes" trying to talk about this to it and find another thread to get all butt hurt over. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.
Oh and by the way, So you killed a A/T when you were 16.. I'm guessing that was no more than 5 years ago. Further you neglect to share what type of car it was, the condition, and whether you only down shifted into turns. All this tells me is a another teenager killed a car.. Whoopie, name me 2 teens that did not kill at least one car in some way or another as they learned to drive, thats why it's called "learning".

-Peter

wow dude. I am not getting pissy, I admitted that I was apperantly talking out of my ass.

I was 16, that was about 7 years ago, it was a brand new 3spd auto chevrolet cavalier. I downshifted into turns, and also used the 1-2-D method when accelerating. So yes, I did learn. I learned not to do that, and I tried sharing my personal experience here.

Spare me your high and mighty attitude about how I am the one that is hostile....your first reply to this thread you used the F word. I responded after several replies of yours that I was wrong, that you were right, and that if your transmission took a dump on you that I would laugh, and I will laugh if I see a post about your transmission slipping. So, admitting that you are right and I am wrong to you, is my butt hurting?

I offered my opinion to this debate and all you could do is say "that it has never happened to you" and then get hostile when I point out my reasons for thinking this is hard on transmissions.

Also, read that manual that was posted in PDF form, it says "Never put your foot on the accelorator pedal while shifting"...its the thing noted by the little caution sign...thats what I was refering to...I mean, you guys are the ones pointing stuff out in the manual, I was just reading what it said.

So, to recap, I am not pissy, I have shared with you the information about my car, I have not yelled or hollered yet, and you need to read the manuals that you post that are a attempt to prove me wrong. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.

[deebrown]

Is the yaris automatic transmission an "autostick"? Or am I completely way off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosti...with_Autostick

[daq421]

Originally Posted by Spades

wow dude. I am not getting pissy, I admitted that I was apperantly talking out of my ass.

I was 16, that was about 7 years ago, it was a brand new 3spd auto chevrolet cavalier. I downshifted into turns, and also used the 1-2-D method when accelerating. So yes, I did learn. I learned not to do that, and I tried sharing my personal experience here.

Spare me your high and mighty attitude about how I am the one that is hostile....your first reply to this thread you used the F word. I responded after several replies of yours that I was wrong, that you were right, and that if your transmission took a dump on you that I would laugh, and I will laugh if I see a post about your transmission slipping. So, admitting that you are right and I am wrong to you, is my butt hurting?

I offered my opinion to this debate and all you could do is say "that it has never happened to you" and then get hostile when I point out my reasons for thinking this is hard on transmissions.

Also, read that manual that was posted in PDF form, it says "Never put your foot on the accelorator pedal while shifting"...its the thing noted by the little caution sign...thats what I was refering to...I mean, you guys are the ones pointing stuff out in the manual, I was just reading what it said.

So, to recap, I am not pissy, I have shared with you the information about my car, I have not yelled or hollered yet, and you need to read the manuals that you post that are a attempt to prove me wrong. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.

You have confused me with at least two other posters.. I started the thread but I've not used the f-word, I did not post the Manual, and saying you'll be happy if one of our cars breaks down is just plain hostile. Further, if any of your responses were in any way really an acknowledgment of error.. well then I'm sorry.. But it sure does not read that way, I've read them a number of times and every single read through they come off as sarcastic at best.

-Peter

[BMGYaris]

Originally Posted by Razr

OK, Im reading the owner's manual and am seeing Toyota's recommendations on manual downshifting of the auto transmission.

I've attached it to save you the time of getting it out of your car.

Have a read of pages 112 and 113 (6 and 7 respectively in the PDF). 'Nuff said?

"Watch the tachometer to keep
engine rpm from going into the red
zone."

This was my favorite part, taken from the warning in the automatic section. Tell me, HOW THE FUCK can they say that when our cars don't come with tachometers? makes me want to do something about it.

[Spades]

Originally Posted by daq421

You have confused me with at least two other posters.. I started the thread but I've not used the f-word, I did not post the Manual, and saying you'll be happy if one of our cars breaks down is just plain hostile. Further, if any of your responses were in any way really an acknowledgment of error.. well then I'm sorry.. But it sure does not read that way, I've read them a number of times and every single read through they come off as sarcastic at best.

-Peter

Apologetic, sarcastic, close enough. I don't know that I would be happy that someones car broke down, I just said I would laugh if your car broke down for reasons mentioned above after I was greeted by such criticism.

I apperantly don't know what I am talking about, we will leave it at that. So far no one has given me a explanation about how my theory(about the sun gear failing from stress that downshifting causes) is wrong. All I have heard are people saying that I am wrong...I was just hoping for a post that someone would actually tell me WHY I am wrong, other than "I did it for years with no problem".

I dunno, this is turning into a flamefest, so this is my last post. My intent was not to anger anyone, simply to explain what I belive to be true...not a opinion, just the facts that were given to me by transmission shops. My input is not welcome, so, I will leave you with what I posted and call it good.

P.S. you can tell you down shifted to far if the engine RPM's go through the roof and the engine starts shutting on and off really quick...sounds something like "Vroom...slam...vrooom....slam" you will hear it pop back and forth really fast and loose power, it can sometimes cause the car to shudder...thats the computer shutting off the fuel or ignition to keep the engine from spinning too fast...go rev limiter!

EDIT: and my responce prior to that was aimed at more than one person Dag, I should have typed out seperate responces, I was aiming it at all the flamers, not just you. I was not paying attention to who was flaming me so I just put up a general post to all the haters.