Using the fan, heater

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by smacky

I've yet to see any positive contribution you've made to any discussion you've participated in. It just seems like you look for any post by BailOut and you contradict it. How about you just stop posting on the fuel economy forum and any time BailOut says anything, we all just assume you've found some terribly witty way to disagree with him. Just go away.

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes but I need proof before I'll believe that using the wipers will cause an engine to burn more fuel.

Yes, a belt driven fan burns fuel, a defective fan clutch burns fuel, and belt driven P/S pump burns fuel, but an electric fan and P/S pump burns fuel? I haven't seen proof, just theories that it does.

[colb]

Originally Posted by BailOut

You completely missed out on the first tenet of engineering by failing to focus on the original problem. The original question was whether using these things uses more fuel, which it indeed does. The question was not whether it was worth worrying about or not.

Some people may not care but hypermilers strive to stretch every gallon of gasoline for all it is worth. 0.1% is a totally arbitrary number and may not sound like much but when you add it up over the course of your lifetime it becomes an easily trackable amount. For example, if you average 32 MPG then you use 0.03125 gallons per mile. If you drive 15,000 miles per year it requires 469 gallons of fuel. If you maintain this pattern from age 16 to age 75 it requires 27,656 gallons of fuel. 0.1% of that is 28 gallons, or 3 fill ups.

No, the original question was along the lines of can you save fuel by not using the fan or heater. You say it wastes fuel. I say prove it. The difference is many times less than the margin of variability from tank to tank.
What is commonly referred to as "good engineering judgment" is focusing on reality, not theory. Theory says the fan uses gasoline, but reality will not back up that statement when the fan uses 10 watts and the car takes 10kW to cruise, while other random factors (humidity, temperature, wind, rain, payload, traffic) influencing mileage probably make up ten to a hundred times as much variability as you save by leaving the fan off.

Plus, you really just recommended that by not using the fan you can save 28 gallons of gas over 60 years.

[detroiter]

Whatever happened to just driving the car and enjoying it? There's such thing as hypermiling but geez, give me a break.

[otterhere]

Originally Posted by detroiter

Whatever happened to just driving the car and enjoying it? There's such thing as hypermiling but geez, give me a break.

Amen to that; I tried "hypermiling" for one day and had a headache at the end of it. If this car isn't fuel-efficient without breaking your back to achieve it, then it's not fuel-efficient.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by otterhere

Amen to that; I tried "hypermiling" for one day and had a headache at the end of it. If this car isn't fuel-efficient without breaking your back to achieve it, then it's not fuel-efficient.

I also "hypermiled" for 1 day and I've seen a major improvement ever since; I sold a 6.0 GTO and bought a 1.5 Yaris

[Rick]

I can think of only two sources of energy for a Yaris. The driver and the gasoline.
You turn the steering wheel, push the pedals, flip the switches, etc. ALL other energy dissipated (heat, light, motion, etc.) ultimately comes from burning gasoline. The battery is an imperfect energy storage device. More than you take from it must be put back by burning gasoline. What do you think isn't proven already??

BailOut is right ...... Those who claim wiper and fan energy usage is very small are right..... Those who think energy is entering the system from something other than driver and gasoline are wrong.

Conserve that tiny amount of energy if you like, Ignore it if you like.

Move on.

[1stToyota]

Not sure if that was based on facts or opinion. Any documented proof around here about running the fan speed on low will burn X amount of fuel, while running fan speed at a higher setting will cause the engine to use more fuel?

[BailOut]

I wasn't going to do this as I have little patience for your overall attitude but I got bored on the drive home today and played around a bit.

What I found not only supports what we have been telling you over and over and over but also shows that the energy cycle is more impacting than any of us thought.

This is detectable even while hill climbing but it is easier on flat ground or on a decline unless you have a very steady throttle foot. All measurements were gained using a ScanGauge II. Its voltage measurement only goes to one decimal place so the measurements are rough but solid.

At "rest" and with the engine running the electrical system sits at 14.1 volts. Since my DRL was on turning on the headlights doesn't produce much of a difference by itself, but combining that with the stock radio on a volume setting of about 20 and using the blinkers was enough to knock the measurable voltage down to 14.0V. After about 2 seconds of this the voltage goes up to 14.2V for a while, which indicates that the alternator is clutching and producing a higher output. Once done the voltage drops back to 14.1V and will stay there if you stop the additional drains, otherwise it will repeat the cycle of dropping to 14.0V and charging back to 14.2V. Using the high beams can produce this effect almost immediately as it is a rather large draw on the electrical system, though not nearly as much as most aftermarket stereo setups, and the alternator clutches for longer to deal with it.

So I got to wondering how much this minor clutching of the alternator was dragging on the engine. I wasn't sure if it would be measurable or not. So I brought up the "load" meter on the SGII. It reads 40 at its lowest and 100 at its highest. Every single time the alternator clutched and produced 14.2V the load reading went up by 1. As soon as the alternator calmed down it went back to 1 lower number. The instant MPG display also drops 1-2% during this time.

These measurements mean that the effect of minor electrical drains in the Yaris isn't 0.1% as was arbitrarily suggested, but is more like 1.5-2%! It will be even more under heavy, constant loads from things like large sound systems, producing even more of a fuel economy drain.

So, there you have it. You wanted numbers and documentation, and I just gave you both. Anyone with an SGII can verify my findings.

[yaris-me]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I wasn't going to do this as I have little patience for your overall attitude but I got bored on the drive home today and played around a bit.

What I found not only supports what we have been telling you over and over and over but also shows that the energy cycle is more impacting than any of us thought.

This is detectable even while hill climbing but it is easier on flat ground or on a decline unless you have a very steady throttle foot. All measurements were gained using a ScanGauge II. Its voltage measurement only goes to one decimal place so the measurements are rough but solid.

At "rest" and with the engine running the electrical system sits at 14.1 volts. Since my DRL was on turning on the headlights doesn't produce much of a difference by itself, but combining that with the stock radio on a volume setting of about 20 and using the blinkers was enough to knock the measurable voltage down to 14.0V. After about 2 seconds of this the voltage goes up to 14.2V for a while, which indicates that the alternator is clutching and producing a higher output. Once done the voltage drops back to 14.1V and will stay there if you stop the additional drains, otherwise it will repeat the cycle of dropping to 14.0V and charging back to 14.2V. Using the high beams can produce this effect almost immediately as it is a rather large draw on the electrical system, though not nearly as much as most aftermarket stereo setups, and the alternator clutches for longer to deal with it.

So I got to wondering how much this minor clutching of the alternator was dragging on the engine. I wasn't sure if it would be measurable or not. So I brought up the "load" meter on the SGII. It reads 40 at its lowest and 100 at its highest. Every single time the alternator clutched and produced 14.2V the load reading went up by 1. As soon as the alternator calmed down it went back to 1 lower number. The instant MPG display also drops 1-2% during this time.

These measurements mean that the effect of minor electrical drains in the Yaris isn't 0.1% as was arbitrarily suggested, but is more like 1.5-2%! It will be even more under heavy, constant loads from things like large sound systems, producing even more of a fuel economy drain.

So, there you have it. You wanted numbers and documentation, and I just gave you both. Anyone with an SGII can verify my findings.

Very smart!

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I wasn't going to do this as I have little patience for your overall attitude but I got bored on the drive home today and played around a bit.

What I found not only supports what we have been telling you over and over and over but also shows that the energy cycle is more impacting than any of us thought.

This is detectable even while hill climbing but it is easier on flat ground or on a decline unless you have a very steady throttle foot. All measurements were gained using a ScanGauge II. Its voltage measurement only goes to one decimal place so the measurements are rough but solid.

At "rest" and with the engine running the electrical system sits at 14.1 volts. Since my DRL was on turning on the headlights doesn't produce much of a difference by itself, but combining that with the stock radio on a volume setting of about 20 and using the blinkers was enough to knock the measurable voltage down to 14.0V. After about 2 seconds of this the voltage goes up to 14.2V for a while, which indicates that the alternator is clutching and producing a higher output. Once done the voltage drops back to 14.1V and will stay there if you stop the additional drains, otherwise it will repeat the cycle of dropping to 14.0V and charging back to 14.2V. Using the high beams can produce this effect almost immediately as it is a rather large draw on the electrical system, though not nearly as much as most aftermarket stereo setups, and the alternator clutches for longer to deal with it.

So I got to wondering how much this minor clutching of the alternator was dragging on the engine. I wasn't sure if it would be measurable or not. So I brought up the "load" meter on the SGII. It reads 40 at its lowest and 100 at its highest. Every single time the alternator clutched and produced 14.2V the load reading went up by 1. As soon as the alternator calmed down it went back to 1 lower number. The instant MPG display also drops 1-2% during this time.

These measurements mean that the effect of minor electrical drains in the Yaris isn't 0.1% as was arbitrarily suggested, but is more like 1.5-2%! It will be even more under heavy, constant loads from things like large sound systems, producing even more of a fuel economy drain.

So, there you have it. You wanted numbers and documentation, and I just gave you both. Anyone with an SGII can verify my findings.

I wasn't going to use one of your quotes, but I gues I will.

As best as I can remember, and adjusted for current topic...

"I need mileage logs for 3 tanks, using the radio, and 3 logs without the use of the radio, or your findings are meaningless"

You can do that if you like, but I've got better things to worry about than saving a few cents per year, as in not using the blower for the next 60 years.

[colb]

So your gas mileage dropped by 1 to 2% for "about 2 seconds" when you turn on the radio? How much do you lose in steady state?? And how fast were you going?

Also, alternators don't have clutches -- you are opening and closing loads in the electrical system and the voltage regulator is making up for it.

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by colb

So your gas mileage dropped by 1 to 2% for "about 2 seconds" when you turn on the radio? How much do you lose in steady state?? And how fast were you going?

Also, alternators don't have clutches -- you are opening and closing loads in the electrical system and the voltage regulator is making up for it.

I know the alternator doesn't actually clutch but that's the easiest way to explain a load on it to most of the readers here. If you get too technical, like explaining that energy isn't free, it seems to confuse some people.

No, the mileage doesn't drop for just 2 seconds (unless you immediately stop the draw, which I did several times), but that seems to be the minimum load adjustment time for the alternator. If you leave equipment running the lower MPG and higher load state remains steady, or at least fluctuates as the voltage bounces between 14.0V and 14.2V.

My speed was 45-50 MPH.

[Altitude]

Just think of it like this - the regulator increases the current to the electro-magnetic rotor based upon the demands of your electical system and this in turn increases the attractive magnetic force, making the rotor want to 'stick' to the stators even more. This increase in force makes the alternator harder to spin - ergo more load on your engine.

Think of the force it takes to remove a rare earth magnet from your refrigerator versus one of those cheap 'carry-out restaurant' magnets and you'll get the idea.

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

I wasn't going to use one of your quotes, but I gues I will.

As best as I can remember, and adjusted for current topic...

"I need mileage logs for 3 tanks, using the radio, and 3 logs without the use of the radio, or your findings are meaningless"

You can do that if you like, but I've got better things to worry about than saving a few cents per year, as in not using the blower for the next 60 years.

*sigh* You... just... don't... get it.

You cannot get 3 tanks of data without using the headlights or blinkers (I know some people never use their blinkers but I always do) so the usual testing method cannot apply. Nor can you ride down the road with the hood up and with a stupid friend sitting in the engine bay with a voltmeter hooked to the battery.

The best possible test that can be performed is with an SGII and that is what I did for you despite your antagonistic and manner-less attitude. I have gone out of my way for you and now I am done with you.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

*sigh* You... just... don't... get it.

You cannot get 3 tanks of data without using the headlights or blinkers (I know some people never use their blinkers but I always do) so the usual testing method cannot apply. Nor can you ride down the road with the hood up and with a stupid friend sitting in the engine bay with a voltmeter hooked to the battery.

The best possible test that can be performed is with an SGII and that is what I did for you despite your antagonistic and manner-less attitude. I have gone out of my way for you and now I am done with you.

You've just got double standards and you haven't proven a thing. You're telling me that you can't do w/o ANY one single electrical load long enough to get the 6 tank average that you demand of others?

I don't know, since this is a thread about the heater...I think I could go long enough w/o using the heater if I was compulsive geek enough about it. BUT since your last posting was about the use of the radio I know that it's the ONE electrical load that certainly could be switched off long enough to run 6 tests. You say it causes extra fuel consumption, prove it expert. Is that too much to ask in a fuel economy forum that's based on so much testing and results?

And to get my quote right, I didn't mention a thing about testing headlights and blinkers...

"I need mileage logs for 3 tanks, using the radio, and 3 logs without the use of the radio, or your findings are meaningless"

Bye, BailOut

[BailOut]

*sigh* I have to admit that you are wonderful at trolling. I only wish you would use that energy for something positive. I bet you could do some neat things if you put your mind to it.

There is no double standard here as a 6 tank test is simply not required to prove what we already know is true. 6 tank tests are only needed for for working with unknown factors. You asked for some numbers and so, even though I thought it was rather silly to do so, I went out of my way and got some for you. If you would like a more extensive test then feel free to do it yourself.

It doesn't matter what electrical device you wish me to go without for a 6 tank test because it is simply not my responsibility to satisfy your curiosity to that level regarding something that we already know. That responsibility is your own.

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

*sigh* I have to admit that you are wonderful at trolling. I only wish you would use that energy for something positive. I bet you could do some neat things if you put your mind to it.

There is no double standard here as a 6 tank test is simply not required to prove what we already know is true. 6 tank tests are only needed for for working with unknown factors. You asked for some numbers and so, even though I thought it was rather silly to do so, I went out of my way and got some for you. If you would like a more extensive test then feel free to do it yourself.

It doesn't matter what electrical device you wish me to go without for a 6 tank test because it is simply not my responsibility to satisfy your curiosity to that level regarding something that we already know. That responsibility is your own.

OP: Does it use more fuel?

You: Yes, using the heater and fan does use more fuel.

You just make statements then admit that you refuse to back them up with a 6 tank mileage log test?

"6 tank tests are only needed for for working with unknown factors."

Exactly. "unknown factors" equals statements about things like radios burning more fuel w/o even a single 6 tank test ever being done to back up one of those radio, turn signal, auto-dimming mirror, etc theories...??

Boy, I sure stepped in it when I asked you to provide actual proof that these things burn more fuel, didn't I? What you really provided was proof that your charging system was working properly, not how much of an actual hit you were taking at the gas pump. I don't want to be overly obsessive about everything from using backup lights to honking the horn and how many cents it will cost me, so I'll move on and leave you to yourself.

I'm done...and that means I won't come right back to this thread like you just did after claiming to be done. No proof was good enough for me.

[eTiMaGo]

I'm sorry guys but this thread has turned to plain old bickering on semantics... gonna close it before it gets any worse.