The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

No offense as Canada is a great country but,

may I ask what Canada creates/invents, leads in, or is there any technological advances they have made for society, ect..?

The majority of all technology, invention, creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit comes from only a few countries and the most being the USA. Others being Japan, Germany, and a couple of others to a lesser extent.

It's our individual freedoms and liberties that have made this possible, not an intrusive government that cradles us to the grave with false promises.

That is why Obama is the most dangerous person to ever have influence on America. He is deconstructing America in favor of turning us toward a mediocre state where government controls all and the human spirit dies.

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

No offense as Canada is a great country but,

may I ask what Canada creates/invents, leads in, or is there any technological advances they have made for society, ect..?

The majority of all technology, invention, creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit comes from only a few countries and the most being the USA. Others being Japan, Germany, and a couple of others to a lesser extent.

I don't really see how swinging technological schlongs has any bearing on the worth of a society.

It's our individual freedoms and liberties that have made this possible, not an intrusive government that cradles us to the grave with false promises.

That is why Obama is the most dangerous person to ever have influence on America. He is deconstructing America in favor of turning us toward a mediocre state where government controls all and the human spirit dies.

Last time I checked the President is still limited to two four year terms and we have a representative Congress that actually has more bearing on what sorts of policies are implemented. What policies would Obama implement that, if proven harmful to American society and ideals, could not be repealed after he leaves office?

This is not the apocalypse. The Republicans will gain more seats next year. Probably not enough to gain a majority, but enough to remove the Dem majority we have now. Then things will stagnate, congress will be gridlocked until 2012 and we'll all get a chance to retain or remove Obama based upon his performance.

I guarantee you that your life will not be drastically altered between now and then. So please lighten up on the doomsday theatrics.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by Altitude

I don't really see how swinging technological schlongs has any bearing on the worth of a society.



Last time I checked the President is still limited to two four year terms and we have a representative Congress that actually has more bearing on what sorts of policies are implemented. What policies would Obama implement that, if proven harmful to American society and ideals, could not be repealed after he leaves office?

This is not the apocalypse. The Republicans will gain more seats next year. Probably not enough to gain a majority, but enough to remove the Dem majority we have now. Then things will stagnate, congress will be gridlocked until 2012 and we'll all get a chance to retain or remove Obama based upon his performance.

I guarantee you that your life will not be drastically altered between now and then. So please lighten up on the doomsday theatrics.

The problem is that Obama has so many radicals on his side and it's enough to implement very damaging policies. Congress has never looked this way before. Just two of the bills being forced (Obama Care and Cap and Tax) would significantly damage our society and would be difficult to reverse (especially once government takes over health care). Notice how fast they are trying to force these things before people learn too much about them.

Sometimes it's almost impossible to reverse things. Look at Social Security and Medicare. Two programs with obligations of $57,000,000,000,000.00 (with a "T"). And Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Biden, and so many others want to double down on it.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by PK198105

ouch.. you serious with that post? for one your diaper wearing astronauts would have a tough time doing anything up there without the Canadarm (the robotic arm thats on every one of your shuttles AND the ISS.

Snowmobile....so you can hunt in the deepest snows and forests of Nebraska

Pharmaceuticals

Leader in aerospace design and R&D

Fiber optics

Peacekeeping

Oh and lets not forget who helps keep your butt safe in Afghanistan

read up it will help you avoid looking ignorant...sorry it had to be said

No offense was meant. I'm French Canadian myself. The point was to show how America, as it has been, has created an environment (freedom, capitalism, ect) that works the best at advancing society. All countries create something but realistically there are only a few that create and invent the majority of things.

[Bob Dog]

WhileI am not the biggest Obama fan in the world this current questionable political situation is incomparably better than the heinious debacle that was the Bush Administration. Never has there been such an erosion of civil liberties, a loss of human rights and a covert restructuring of the nations laws and tax code to favor the intersts of large corporations and the super rich. The Treasury, and the banking system were looted, as well as the invested wealth of the poor, middle an even some of the upper classes. Was wire tapping not intrusive? Was the infringment of government on the internet, and the attempted imposition of religious tenants by government in what is supposed to be a nation with separation of church and state not a total disregard for the constitution. While I find some the PC advocacy of the current adminstration annoying, it is incomparably better than the neofacist destruction the rights of Americans that was Bushland.

[TLyttle]

If Canada "invented" anything truly beneficial to the planet, it is peacekeeping, and Canada is proud of that role. Lots of other nations start fights, and Canada (until our current PM got in) was recognised as a truly neutral party who would keep the hotheads from killing off whole generations of each other. Some countries (I include the US in this) saw no value in such a role, and ignored Canada's contributions. Now we have taken on the role of aggressor (Afghanistan) and have lost the respect of many nations for this move; Mr Bush thought it was great...

We treat our citizens equally before the courts, maintain a health and pharmaceutical system that cannot bankrupt a person for getting sick, educate our children (all of them) to a very high standard, and keep handguns off the streets (most handguns in Canada seem to arrive illegally from the US). There is little to fear as one lives here, physically or financially. At the same time our Capital is filled with US firms lobbying our government to change as much of that as possible, particularly the NRA, and the HMO and drug company reps.

Many of our aerospace techs work in the US, the rest are still here working out airplanes and engines to move people as safely as possible. There are very few military machines built or designed here.

We have our share of geniuses and quacks here, same as ANY other country, and there are flaws as well, but (again like any other country) we do our best with what we have...

[JBougie]

The US federal government was NOT created to control and dictate how the citizens live their lives. There is absolutely no reason for the government to have to 'save us' from ourselves. There are a great deal of government programs we need to get rid of and a whole lot of house cleaning starting with Pelosi (God, I loathe that woman).

However, like has been mentioned - we have term limits, so we can at least vote Obama out in 4 years (which, I guarantee if he only sits 1 term in office we will all be labeled racist) and pray that the 'progressives' get the hell out of congress.

We have been indoctrinated over the years (hello public schools...) that socialism is OK and that no one should have to suffer, everyone needs cable TV, and everyone has a right to free healthcare. However, we need to get back to the basic principals of what makes this country great - you don't have a right to shit except the rights that are given to you as a citizen of the USA and if you want something you need to work for it instead of crying to the county becuase you would rather sit on your ass than get a job, but you still think you deserve that BMW. Until Americans get out of that 'but if my neighbor has it, so should I!' mentality, we are screwed. And the liberals love it because they pray on the weak minded.

And PS - If Canada's health care is so great, why the hell are there bus loads of Canadians coming to the Mayo clinic and other areas of the US for health care becuase they can't get seen back home? No offense to the 'great' program you guys have set up but I have never once in my life thought about going to another country to get seen by a doctor. In fact, if I was in another country and fell ill - there is no other place in the world I would rather be seen by a doctor than the US.

[gokartride]

And they wonder why the Republicans are having such a difficult time right now. Saddens me that the party has marginalized itself almost into oblivion.

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by JBougie

However, like has been mentioned - we have term limits, so we can at least vote Obama out in 4 years (which, I guarantee if he only sits 1 term in office we will all be labeled racist).....

we're all racist...the only difference is, i'm just a recovering one!

having "black" friend/s is not a defense for this argument!

[Bob Dog]

You will want another countries health care system if you ever get locked out of the healthcare system in this one. It can happen very quickly: a bad injury or a prolonged sickness with reduced income is all it takes. Did you know that 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of famlies no longer have health insurance. They either have been priced out, or have had their insurance cancelled by companies that can find a way to cancel their insurance so as not pay the bill. Close to half the foreclosures in our grand nation are healthcare related. The health insurance system here is nothing but a dirty congame that people have been terrorized into acceptting. The reason people come to this country for health care from other countries is because here, if they are wealthy enough, they can buy their way to the front of the line, leaving millions of Americans without healthcare from health care professionals that their tax dollars helped pay to educate and institutions that their tax dollars and donations help pay to support..

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

You will want another countries health care system if you ever get locked out of the healthcare system in this one. It can happen very quickly: a bad injury or a prolonged sickness with reduced income is all it takes. Did you know that 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of famlies no longer have health insurance. They either have been priced out, or have had their insurance cancelled by companies that can find a way to cancel their insurance so as not pay the bill. Close to half the foreclosures in our grand nation are healthcare related. The health insurance system here is nothing but a dirty congame that people have been terrorized into acceptting. The reason people come to this country for health care from other countries is because here, if they are wealthy enough, they can buy their way to the front of the line, leaving millions of Americans without healthcare from health care professionals that their tax dollars helped pay to educate and institutions that their tax dollars and donations help pay to support..

I have a crazy thing called a "savings account" for if and when I don't have insurance coverage. I have a high risk plan - I am 25 and don't go to the doctor every month for stupid things like headaches and hang nails so I don't need to pay for extra coverage. My husband and I pay $80 a month and it is perfect for us, it covers the basic annual check up and preventive things but it's really just there for huge medical emergencies such as car accidents and things of that nature. If I do end up having a sinus infection or something out of the ordinary - I PAY FOR THAT. After I reach a deductible (which is only at $3,000 ... so in the medical world that is a very small drop in the bucket) then the insurance kicks in and covers a percentage of the remaining balance.

Honestly, it is the responsibility of NO ONE but you to ensure that YOU are taken care of. It's not like I'm being crazy here - it's really just common sense. So why everyone has this 'but I can't do this alone so the government needs to give it to me' attitude is beyond me. Maybe I missed the day in class when they made sense of it all, but I really doubt it.

As for getting kicked off our insurance - if you go to a country with nationalized health care, you can be left untreated because THEY don't think you are worth the investment. You can be left untreated because THEY think you're not the 'model' of healthy and so you don't deserve treatment; you are completely and totally giving government the right to gamble with your health, and the treatment of. No thanks - they can't even read a Bill for the sake of our countries future, I sure as hell don't want them telling my doctor how to practice medicine.

And, side note: Has anyone read the health care bill being proposed in the US? All 1,000 +/- pages of it? Because if you haven't, you should. I am on page 329, I would probably have more of it but I work full time, volunteer three nights a week with a juvenile diversion program and go to school full time ... so my extra curricular reading time has been drastically cut.

[TLyttle]

Thanks Bob Dog, that keeps me from explaining why most medical setups seem to be superior to the US mess. I must assume that JBougie is young, and still thinks she is invincible; time will show the folly of her attitude. I pay under $100/mo for health care coverage, and I cannot be cancelled, period. My kids pay about the same, and having a child is not a financial burden because of the medical system. We all know that my stroke would have bankrupted me in the US, but not here. I guess she thinks I should just sign over my property to the closest doctor and croak.!

The "busloads" of Canadians heading for Mayo are a few people with mysterious diseases whose survival depends on the research facility at that clinic. And for every Canadian heading south, there are 20 more Americans heading north to get pharmaceuticals at a reasonable, affordable, price (the bus companies run tours!), but now the US Customs has cracked down on those depriving the drug companies from their exorbitant profits. If she has a bombproof insurance system that will not cancel because of a (all-of-a-sudden) "pre-existing condition", good on her; I suggest she keep dreaming in Republican Technicolor for as long as she remains healthy. I spoke to too many Vets down there whose health care was truly second-class, even compared to the Canadian standards. Is that any way to treat those guys?

I do hope her posture isn't too much affected by keeping her head in the sand...

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Thanks Bob Dog, that keeps me from explaining why most medical setups seem to be superior to the US mess. I must assume that JBougie is young, and still thinks she is invincible; time will show the folly of her attitude. I pay under $100/mo for health care coverage, and I cannot be cancelled, period. My kids pay about the same, and having a child is not a financial burden because of the medical system. We all know that my stroke would have bankrupted me in the US, but not here. I guess she thinks I should just sign over my property to the closest doctor and croak.!

The "busloads" of Canadians heading for Mayo are a few people with mysterious diseases whose survival depends on the research facility at that clinic. And for every Canadian heading south, there are 20 more Americans heading north to get pharmaceuticals at a reasonable, affordable, price (the bus companies run tours!), but now the US Customs has cracked down on those depriving the drug companies from their exorbitant profits. If she has a bombproof insurance system that will not cancel because of a (all-of-a-sudden) "pre-existing condition", good on her; I suggest she keep dreaming in Republican Technicolor for as long as she remains healthy. I spoke to too many Vets down there whose health care was truly second-class, even compared to the Canadian standards. Is that any way to treat those guys?

I do hope her posture isn't too much affected by keeping her head in the sand...

You may not ever be canceled ... but they sure as shit can delay treatment as long as they want to, hopefully you don't die before they decide you're worthy of treatment. You might, but hey - it's cheap, right?

And as for the health care of our vets - you're right, it isn't perfect ... I definitely wouldn't say it's 2nd class. My father is 100% disabled out of the US Navy - he was shot in the back so while we were growing up we had Champ VA insurance (he still has that insurance, of course). It was completely paid for, we went to the dentist regularly and saw a doctor whenever we were sick. My father has had 8 back surgeries and thanks to the VA he can still walk. Now, the waits can be crazy and it might take you a week to get in to see a doctor but that also greatly depends on which VA center you have to go to - the administrative side is a giant pain in the ass to deal with, but so is Blue Cross Blue Shield. Actually - I take that back, BCBS is more of a pain in the ass to deal with. At least at the VA I know whoever answers the phone will speak English

Also, just because I don't drink from the liberal drinking cup doesn't mean my head is in the sand. But you're awesome for thinking that

[RedRide]

No one in the US wants another country's health care sys. We need one that is taylor made for us, For the US

All the healthcare reform misinformation has its genesis with the health care insurance/pharmaceutical industry who are making billions of dollars within the present sys.
Since june, their lobbyist have spent over 45 billion dollars to spread all the misinfomation to keep the geese that are laying the golden eggs alive.

The right wing is hanging on every false word they say as they both have the same objective: make Obama and his policies fail with no regaurd for the wellfare of the country.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by RedRide

No one in the US wants another country's health care sys. We need one that is taylor made for us, For the US

All the healthcare reform misinformation has its genesis with the health care insurance/pharmaceutical industry who are making billions of dollars within the present sys.
Since june, their lobbyist have spent over 45 billion dollars to spread all the misinfomation to keep the geese that are laying the golden eggs alive.

The right wing is hanging on every false word they say as they both have the same objective: make Obama and his policies fail with no regaurd for the wellfare of the country.

No one wants Obama to fail - his failures could really screw our country over. This is the best damn place on the planet to live and if you think that we WANT someone to screw that up, you sir are sadly mistaken.

You should read the Bill - seriously. You should read all the little tidbits that are thrown in there. They sure aren't discussing those on the 5:00 news, some of it is pretty crazy.

[Bob Dog]

Repeat : 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of families no longer have health insurance. Once again so it sinks in: around 50% home foreclosures are medically related. Private health insurance is a scam just like the banking scam was a scam. It is structured by actuaries to maximize corporate profits not to provide health care. It is entrenched, crooked and set up like a lottery that is meant to never pay off (or payoff as little as possible). The odds are stacked, by corporate accountants and lawyers who spend their entire professional lives seting things up against you and you can not win, and they set it up so you can not even percieve the manner in which you are being ripped off. Who ever put in your mind that corporations must fulfill what they say they will? The laws do not make them . They are so rich that they buy and sell the law. You are under the delusion that what people in positions of authority tell you is the truth and for your benefit. It is not, it a distortion of facts that they skillfully tell by means of professional liars to get you to do and believe whatever it takes to relieve you of as much of your money as possible. And if you think that savings account is going to cover you I've got some news for you, they'll burn through that about as fast as a crackhead smokes a rock. America's health care system is now rated 37 th in the industrialised world. 37 TH. It does not serve the long term needs of most people. Just because you have never been locked out, or told what you were lead to believe was covered is a preexisting condition and is not does not mean it is not going to happen. You are a prime time sucker and what you do drink is a big glass of bull's smilk. Everyday: for breakfast, for lunch and for dinner.

[TLyttle]

Please, JBougie, don't believe all the crap you read (or hear) about the Canadian system! Not only can I not be cancelled, but I get top of the line treatment in a timely manner, regardless of my age, previous illnesses, OR MY BANK BALANCE! Why is that so hard for you to understand? And we ALL are treated that way, regardless of the fact that our system is 30% cheaper per capita than the US system. Why should you have to save for something that should be your right? Your savings should be for a house, for your future, not to give over to a medical problem and still be short!

Pay attention to Bob Dog, he is closer to the facts than I am.

As far as the vets are concerned, why should one VA hospital be less effective than another? One woman had to re-use some of the equipment over time or be charged for it. Your dad may be getting good treatment (I question the need for 8 surgeries...), but is that the rule or the exception?

As time goes by, your experiences will give you perspective, something you seem to be lacking. Travel more; that too is a better use for your savings, and will be a better education than what you are getting now...

[kac]

Just got done removing rear seat from yaris.... pretty tired now, but gotta make a run to the video store...