Does your liftback have ABS?

[Dweeb]

I know this is going to stir some s**t, but…

ABS on a Street car will not stop you any sooner than a car with out them. (this is the biggest misconception, and also provides drivers with a false sense of security).
In almost all instances (with the exception of a few very specific conditions), a car with ABS will actually take longer to stop than a car with out ABS.
What ABS was “primarily” designed for, was to prevent wheel lock-up under hard/panic breaking “most people lock up their brakes under hard/panic braking” so they would be able to steer. (in panic braking situations, most people freeze, close their eyes, and even scream sometimes). (as you know, when wheels locked up, you cannot steer).
Mind you, most “people” do not know how to module (thresh hold breaking) their brakes, so ABS does work/does what it supposed to do, allow you to steer while braking under the mentioned conditions, but does not stop you any sooner (shorter distance).

These OEM systems for ABS have been designed for a car that has to see different condition, drivers, roads, tires, tires pressures, widths of tire, tire compounds… etc, you get the idea, so it has to be very flexible “general”. So when you have to make a program that runs the ABS system, the ABS pump, sensors, you need to take a lot of factors into consideration. Plus things like, car speed, wheel speed, wheel speed difference, steering angle on certain cars, yaw angle,… you get my point. There are way too many factors to make the system work properly in all conditions.

Some people say that race cars have these systems…. Well…

You cannot not compare “Race ABS/Traction Control” systems with the ones put on a production cars. For one reason, the cost. These systems cost more that your average car.
Also ABS in nothing compare to Traction Control. (Traction control is used in both scenarios, as in acceleration and braking on race cars.) Here is an indication, actual Street Legal Exotic performance cars DO NOT have ABS, they have advanced traction controls, not to the point of F1 or WRC rally cars, but much better that ABS.

ABS, EBD and all the newest hoop-la, has (man I hate to say this) a place in this society that is more interested in how many cup-holders, ABS ,EBD, a car has, than actually “learning to drive, observing the road conditions, and knowing you vehicles characteristics”. Thus making you a better and a safer driver that all of these gadgets together.
No matter what systems you put in that car, it is STILL the “driver” that makes all the difference. The Driver is still the one that will avoid the vehicle in front of him/you, NOT the ABS or the EBD or what ever system they put in the car.

my wife said it best one day - ABS = Alotof Bull S**t

Sorry for the rant boys and girls…



Dweeb

[SmellyTofu]

You are right. There are instances ABS does extend braking distance more than necessary however, what ABS does very well is be consistent.. be it consistently poorly or consistently well. After a few beers, ABS will still perform as well as sober provided you actuate the brake pedal in the same manner (and time). That's the winning factor of ABS is that it does not discriminate against skill level, age, strength and familiarity.

I change from car to car on sometimes a daily basis and it's impossible to get intimate with a vehicle in the first 100m or so. For me, ABS is more important than airbags.

[Dweeb]

Originally Posted by SmellyTofu

You are right. There are instances ABS does extend braking distance more than necessary however, what ABS does very well is be consistent.. be it consistently poorly or consistently well.

You are correct about the consistency, as long as you are talking about the same car.
You also mentioned that you drive a lot of different cars, ( I used to also, different one ”rental” almost every day) Than you should know what a difference that makes (different cars, totally different performance/behavior).
Just from my personal cars. The Nissan 350Z has one of the best systems (ABS +VDC +TCS) out there. It can allow you to almost lock up the brakes with it on. It actually, made me not pull the fuse on it. As long as you are on clean tarmac that is.
A Subaru system in general is way too sensitive, you just look at it and it starts pulsating, the newer Impreza STi is better that the WRX or RS.
Dodge, is just as bad, oversensitive in most cases. These are just my personal experiences, from day to day driving and many years in racing.

on a side rant:

It is the driver that makes the difference and avoids collisions. The problem: People put way too much into “it’s got ABS and EBD and….. “ believing" that they will not get into an accident or it will avoid it because of that.

Making all these systems is a good idea and I support it, but they are not going to lessen the amount of accident that we see every day.
There should be a real “driving course” that you have to attend and then pass, that involves driving on every condition of a surface that you may experience, panic stops, collision/obstacle avoidance, see/feel what a front tire blow-out feels like at 100km/h +, what you do when that occurs, what you do when you loose control of a car on snow, ice, when you hit a deep water puddle, what happens when the car over-steer / under-steers on you in a corner, how to properly counter steer and/or correct it and get the car under control again. These are the skills that avoid accidents, the new technology may help with this, for example VDC helps keeping the car pointed in one direction, but it still comes down to the driver.
There are country’s out there that make you take test like I mentioned here to get a driving license.
In North America, to get a drivers license all you have to do is generally is show up, pass a “multiple choice” written test, drive in a parking lot for 10 minutes. Then, HERE is your New and Shiny drivers license sir/mam.

I live in Toronto Canada, there is this driving “test” center by the airport, if you ever want to have a good laugh, go see some people drive there. The “new” wanna-be drivers HIT, and I mean HIT the building that is by the Driving Centre course, when they do their “driving test”. SAD!!

What we need is real driving courses. And not a License in a cereal box.
I know this is logistically impossible, and cost would be astronomical to do with so many people in N.A.. and yes I know about the gradual drivers license program. But hat still doesn’t teach them how to drive, leave correct amount of space in front of them, where to look while driving, (most people look at the bumper of the car ahead… WRONG)

Most of these “new driver courses” that you can take are a joke (no disrespect for anyone)

Ok, enough of may rant….

Dweeb

[plushDJ]

I personally find ABS annoying, I used to drive a Yukon with it and especially in winter, annoying!!!!

[ricko]

Why annoying DJ????

[ricko]

Thanks for the rants Dweeb, your thoughts at least are well considered. Most of your points are in fact dead-on, but I think that you have perhaps missed THE point. The problem IS the driver, and in all but a very small percentage of situations a good, properly trained driver will probably successfully avoid an accident without ABS. But driver training is the critical point, and until you actually have to prove some measure of competence (besides paying the fee) to get a license, the roads will be littered with people who think having possession of that little plastic card means they know how to drive. We both know that is NEVER going to happen.
You live in Toronto ..... how many people do you know who have been to the BMW or similar accident avoidance or skid school? How many do you know who have taking an introductory race program at Shannonville? The sad fact is until a mandatory driver ed program that teaches DRIVING instead of just the rules of the road, is in place the majority of people on the road have no idea how their car works, let alone how to control it. I truly hope all those people who THINK they have mastered driving skills in difficult siuations are as good as they think they are, because the only thing more dangerous than a bad driver is one who THINKS he is good one.
I guess that is my point about ABS being compulsory for everyone. It's not that it is needed by everyone all of the time, but it sure is effective when it is needed. (note - I have had only 1 instance in 4 years with ABS that I think it made a difference - in some cases once is enough) I hope your wife still thinks it is AlotofBullS***, when she she has made a skillfull stop in challenging conditions, and notices some "Dude" in a tricked out van with
$10K stereo and no ABS filling up her mirrors. ABS is not the answer, of course proper driver training and car maintenance is. It has been statistically proven however that ABS does give that "Dude" a better chance of avoiding your wife.

[AlphaFox]

The first time I had a car with ABS I slammed it on in the snow during a curve. I thought it would allow me to steer through it, but all it did was slide me into the curb, ding my rim and screw up my alignment. ABS sucks, I should have tried to power through the curve instead of slow down in it. I put too much faith in the ABS which is what most people do..

[plushDJ]

Pretty much the same reason as AlphaFox, not that I got into an accident or anything but it just made the Yukon slide in the snow. That and the sound it makes is a pain, it seems like it kicks in all the time even when you don't need it too. I've taken lots of driver training (regular, class 1, and emergency situation/avoidance) and I feel I don't need it; it doesnt suit what I've learned or my driving style so I don't need it

[SmellyTofu]

Originally Posted by AlphaFox

The first time I had a car with ABS I slammed it on in the snow during a curve. I thought it would allow me to steer through it, but all it did was slide me into the curb, ding my rim and screw up my alignment. ABS sucks, I should have tried to power through the curve instead of slow down in it. I put too much faith in the ABS which is what most people do..

Originally Posted by plushDJ

Pretty much the same reason as AlphaFox, not that I got into an accident or anything but it just made the Yukon slide in the snow. That and the sound it makes is a pain, it seems like it kicks in all the time even when you don't need it too. I've taken lots of driver training (regular, class 1, and emergency situation/avoidance) and I feel I don't need it; it doesnt suit what I've learned or my driving style so I don't need it

Hang on guys, ABS allows you to steer and slow down... on the proviso that there is actually grip between the tyres and the contact surface and you have not exceeded the grip level of the tyres. What you guys are expecting ABS to do is what VSC/ESP is suppose to do. They are both different systems.

If you are in terminal understeer/oversteer, no amount of ABS will help you recover because you have already crossed the grip threshold (imagine the grip circle). VSC/ESP however can activate individual brakes on each wheel to keep you turning in the right direction. VSC/ESP is one thing no one can manually replicate without 4 brake pedals.

[Dweeb]

Both of you made good points,
As for the wife in an accident… well it was actually the ABS that caused her to get into a accident. Downhill on a wet /slushy road (pavement). The car (Durango) did NOT stop for about 60m. She was going about 20km/h on a one lane off-ramp when she started to brake. ABS just kept on pumping. No matter what she did. Could not go left or right, concrete barriers on each side. There was a car on the bottom sitting at a red light. I was with her. If the ABS wasn’t there, the tires would of made contact with the pavement below the slush and would of stopped her. That is the biggest problem with ABS, every time it releases the brake pressure, it lets the tire rotate, this causes the tire to ride up on the “slippery” stuff (may it be snow, slush, wet leafs, loose gravel, mud… that is on top of the solid ground), and you are back to the “wheel locks up” ABS unlocks it “repetition” and you can’t stop.
If the ABS wasn’t there, the tire would of been able to eventually make contact with the solid ground, and she would of stopped.

[ricko]

Although I am doubtful that any of these cases indicate problems with ABS as much, as they indicate an inability to read road conditions (the idea that regular brakes would allow you to reach down through the slush to solid ground is interesting), stats don't lie.
You are right Dweeb, too many people hope for an ABS bailout, without really understanding the technology. Again that is a driver fault. I do find it troubling that you all were unable to modulate brake pressure once you backed off, and feel that the ABS engages without being needed. I have NEVER experienced these problems with my Acura. Of course there is ABS and there is ABS, and since 2 of the vehicles cited were large and very heavy (the Yukon and the Durango), it is possible that ABS works less effeciently on this type of vehicle. None of the sources I researched delineated their stats by type of vehicle.
Before you are too quick to judge the merits or faults of ABS based on personal experiences, I would encourage you to "google" ABS and see what various impartial agencies have to say. After all there are some people who argue that seatbelts are dangerous because they can prevent rapid escape from a car in a fiery accident. And they are right, it is possible.

[Idjiit]

Originally Posted by ricko

Although I am doubtful that any of these cases indicate problems with ABS as much, as they indicate an inability to read road conditions (the idea that regular brakes would allow you to reach down through the slush to solid ground is interesting), stats don't lie.

Dude... the case above where the person drifted 90 feet when they were only going 20mph doesn't indicate a problem? It's a perfect example of ABS failing where a good driver could have actually controlled the car.

[BensVitz]

And to think, I would have been happy with a simple "Yes" or "No."

Thanx,
Ben

[plushDJ]

So from what a lot of people are saying is that it contributes to hydroplaning in larger vehicles. I've never actually been in a situation when I've needed it but really, when all I'm doing is slowing down for a stop sign or red light (that would be easily achieved if I did/didn't have ABS)and I hear it roaring at me, really, it just annoys me. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I just hate the noise.
In my opinion it's like the traction control debate, it is a good thing for MOST people but a lot of pure drivers say it takes away from the driving experience. I personally can do (and have done) anything in a vehicle without ABS that could be done in one with ABS. One thing I was taught was that people don't have enough confidence in a vehicle's ability and it's very true. It would be great if everyone could take an emergency avoidance course just for the experience but that's asking a little too much.

[Dweeb]

how about... maybe

oooops... that reply was for a previous post ... way up

[plushDJ]

The VSC/ESP sounds very cool though, it sounds like Subaru's AWD system but for brakes. And yeah, I gotta agree with dweeb, a lot of it IS THE DRIVER.

[ricko]

I dunno Idjiit 90 (actually 180)feet downhill, on a slushy slippery surface, in a 2 ton pick-up???? Even from 20KPH????? I don't debate that ABS failed to stop the truck, I just have my doubts that a conventional fitted vehicle would do any better. But as I admitted none of the studies I read this morning differentiated between cars, trucks, SUVs etc. If you have found a better source let my know.
Again I am not calling anybody's ability here into question and I readily admit that proper driving courses are the answer, I just don't see that happening.

[Idjiit]

Originally Posted by ricko

I dunno Idjiit 90 (actually 180)feet downhill, on a slushy slippery surface, in a 2 ton pick-up???? Even from 20KPH????? I don't debate that ABS failed to stop the truck, I just have my doubts that a conventional fitted vehicle would do any better. But as I admitted none of the studies I read this morning differentiated between cars, trucks, SUVs etc. If you have found a better source let my know.
Again I am not calling anybody's ability here into question and I readily admit that proper driving courses are the answer, I just don't see that happening.

You're filtering the information for your own a priori belief. Have you read the statistics that show how accident rates went up after ABS became popular?