Comparison Test: 2012 Toyota Yaris Vs. 2012 Toyota Prius c

[Yar Is Word]

http://www.automedia.com/Comparison_...sm20120401py/1

Comparison Test: 2012 Toyota Yaris Vs. 2012 Toyota Prius c

Comparing similar, fuel-efficient non-hybrid and hybrid cars

by Steve Temple

Even though gas prices are lower than they were a year ago heading into summer, consumers are clamoring for more economical cars. Indeed, demand for both new and used Prius hybrids has swelled. That's certainly understandable, but a singular pursuit of better gas mileage might involve some tradeoffs.

Back-to-Back Test Drives

To illustrate, we drove two high-mileage champs back-to-back—the new city-version 2012 Toyota Prius c and the redesigned 2012 Toyota Yaris. Both have similar chassis platforms and 1.5-liter gasoline engines. Total power output from the gas-engine Yaris is 106 horsepower. The Prius engine uses the Atkinson cycle to improve efficiency; total system output is 99 hp. The Prius c has the added benefit—and burden—of a Hybrid Synergy Drive, with its load of batteries (2500 vs. 2295 pounds). Granted, that propulsion system makes for record-setting ratings of fuel economy around town (53 mpg), but how do the two compare on the open road? And which makes more sense from a cost/benefit standpoint?

To answer these questions and more, we drove both cars on the same basic route from sea level in the San Francisco area to the Lake Tahoe/Reno at 8,000 feet and back, taking careful note of fuel consumption and driving characteristics.

After all, even though the EPA gives overall rating of 50 mpg for the Prius c and 32 mpg for the Yaris, don't forget that familiar warning: Your actual mileage may vary. That's what we set out to determine in a real-world situation, along with factoring in the human element (that is, how we drove the two cars differently in response to their contrasting dynamics).

Exterior Styling
First, though, a word about styling, both inside and out: The previous Toyota Yaris model had body shape about as edgy as a jelly bean, but the redesigned 2012 Yaris is a big improvement, giving this entry-level car some of that tuner-car attitude. (Though don't expect to see a Yaris, not even the sportier SE version, appearing in The Fast and The Furious 6.)

The similarly sized Toyota Prius c has a much snappier shape than the larger models in the Prius lineup, partly because it's 15 inches shorter and 500 pounds lighter than the Liftback version. So we'd give equal compliments for both the Yaris and Prius c on exterior aesthetics.

Interior Styling
Not so on the interiors though. Here the Yaris has an advantage. Earlier versions of the dash had the center-stack layout with a shroud over the gauges, which the Prius c still uses as well. This setup makes for easier reading even in bright sunlight, but on the Prius c we noticed this cowl would occasionally shake on rough, snowplow-scarred sections of road. We prefer the more conventional position of the gauges in front of the driver, as seen on the latest Yaris. We also found its upholstery and trim materials to be less Spartan as well.

Getting back to the driving experience, we'll confess that the Yaris inspired us to apply a heavier right foot, simply because it's more fun to handle, with a tossable feel. The Prius c has a more sedate, subdued character, as it's lugging all those extra batteries and a 60-hp electric motor. So we'll admit that our fuel consumption readings are not precisely scientific, in line with that proviso, "your actual mileage may vary."

Highway Miles
On level highway driving, the mileage rating of the Prius c actually decreases, because the 1.5-liter engine is providing propulsion instead of the electric motor. Given the extra weight and detuned engine configuration, we privately wondered whether the Hybrid Synergy Drive's 99-hp, 1.5-liter powerplant could clamber above the tree line. It turns out our apprehensions were unfounded, as it gamely grunted up the long grades.

While the throttle response was acceptable, we nonetheless found ourselves taking full advantage of the hills and dales, increasing our speed on the downsides in anticipation of the climbing the next ascent. At some point, however, you inevitably lose that momentum, and a really heavy uphill slog begins. As we headed to the highlands, the digital readout on the Toyota Prius c indicated fuel consumption in the high-40 mpg range.

Mountain Driving
On the other hand, the lighter Toyota Yaris simply scampered up the foothills of the Sierras into the mountain passes, and we only occasionally slapped the shifter sideways from Eco mode (overdrive) to regular drive. That transmission feature gives the Yaris a sportier feel, and makes the most of the powerband of the four-cylinder engine.

By comparison, the Prius c serves as merely an efficient form of transportation. With the digital gauges and lack of traditional engine readouts, this computerized conveyance feels more like fingering an iPad than driving a car. Although intellectually stimulating, the experience of grabbing the wheel lacks some hairy-knuckled passion.

In addition, its narrow, hard tires (with lower rolling resistance) tend to hunt and wander at times in the shallow tracks left by long-haul truckers. On the other hand, on winding mountain roads, the Prius c's lower center of gravity (due to the placement of the battery pack and other components), is an advantage, so the chassis hugs tight turns with minimal body lean. Ditto for the Yaris.

Switchbacks and Inclines
While the Prius c's handling was better than we expected on twisty switchbacks, the engine complained with a annoying drone as it struggled to make it up to the ski slopes of Mt. Rose, while the Yaris didn't seem to mind as much. No surprise, then, that the average mpg readout on the Prius c plummeted to 22 mpg. On the other hand, when coasting downhill from Donner Pass, we saw as high as 99 mpg on the display. And the batteries recharged in just a few minutes.

After driving from the Bay area to the Reno/Tahoe area and heading back, we had to refill the 9.5-gallon tank in the old mining town of Dutch Flat, CA. Based on the distance covered and fuel consumed (397.4 miles and 9.1 gallons), the plucky Prius c managed 43.6 mpg. Given the steep inclines, some high-speed cruising at 65-plus mph, plus a two-person cargo for most of the trip, that's still an impressive figure.

Mileage Comparisons
The Yaris didn't quite make it as far on this route on a full tank, as it averaged 33 mpg, by our calculations. As noted earlier, we'll admit to driving more aggressively, simply because we enjoyed the feel of the car better, so even better fuel efficiencies are no doubt possible.

So which car would we choose? From purely an economic standpoint, the Prius c clearly has the advantage. Even though you pay $6,445 more for the Hybrid Synergy setup ($16,800 versus $23,245 as tested, that sum could be recouped in several years if you frequently drive around town with gentle pressure on your right foot, and fuel prices continue to escalate.

By our calculations, the Prius c achieved roughly 10-mpg (or more) better fuel consumption than a Yaris on a real-world route. So if you drive 15,000 miles per year, in round numbers you'd burn less than 350 gallons in the Prius c, compared with nearly 455 gallons in the Yaris (assuming you keep your foot in it like we did). So roughly speaking (and literally here as well), if you venture to the high country like we did, you'd save 155 gallons a year, or $620 in annual fuel costs. That means you could recoup the extra cost of the Prius c in about 10 years. Or probably even less, if you keep your foot out of it.

Driving Style
In addition, keep in mind that there are other advantages of a Prius c, such as access to the HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lanes in congested areas. And maintenance costs should be lower as well, since there's not the usual collection of engine accessories (starter, alternator, power steering pump, accessory belt), and the brake pads shouldn't require replacing due to the regenerative braking system (at least in theory).

Of course, being thrifty isn't everything in life, and consuming fewer hydrocarbons comes at a cost in both comfort and ride quality. After all, you have to live with a car long-term, and you presumably want a happy relationship. So if you often take longer drives on rough-and-tough routes beyond city limits, the 2012 Toyota Yaris delivers a more satisfying experience overall, and is still frugal in fuel efficiency. While not fast and furious, it's certainly fun and friendly. www.toyota.com

Pros and Cons
Prius c Pros:

•Perpetual-motion fuel efficiency with a videogame dash display
•Snakes through traffic and parks as easy as a Segway
•Potential cast member for the Big Bang Theory TV show.

Prius c Cons:

•"I think I can" performance on long, steep grades
•Easily intimidated by pickups and SUVs
•Interior as warm and inviting as a Frigidaire.

Yaris Pros:

•Latest model boasts no-embarrassment styling
•Decent handling for the dollar
•Acceptable combination of economy and livability

Yaris Cons:

•Vin Diesel's next vehicular victim
•Flimsy package tray for cargo area
•Still somewhat a girly man's car

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by Yar Is Word

http://www.automedia.com/Comparison_...sm20120401py/1

Comparison Test: 2012 Toyota Yaris Vs. 2012 Toyota Prius c

Comparing similar, fuel-efficient non-hybrid and hybrid cars

by Steve Temple

Even though gas prices are lower than they were a year ago heading into summer, consumers are clamoring for more economical cars. Indeed, demand for both new and used Prius hybrids has swelled. That's certainly understandable, but a singular pursuit of better gas mileage might involve some tradeoffs.

Back-to-Back Test Drives

To illustrate, we drove two high-mileage champs back-to-back—the new city-version 2012 Toyota Prius c and the redesigned 2012 Toyota Yaris. Both have similar chassis platforms and 1.5-liter gasoline engines. Total power output from the gas-engine Yaris is 106 horsepower. The Prius engine uses the Atkinson cycle to improve efficiency; total system output is 99 hp. The Prius c has the added benefit—and burden—of a Hybrid Synergy Drive, with its load of batteries (2500 vs. 2295 pounds). Granted, that propulsion system makes for record-setting ratings of fuel economy around town (53 mpg), but how do the two compare on the open road? And which makes more sense from a cost/benefit standpoint?

To answer these questions and more, we drove both cars on the same basic route from sea level in the San Francisco area to the Lake Tahoe/Reno at 8,000 feet and back, taking careful note of fuel consumption and driving characteristics.

After all, even though the EPA gives overall rating of 50 mpg for the Prius c and 32 mpg for the Yaris, don't forget that familiar warning: Your actual mileage may vary. That's what we set out to determine in a real-world situation, along with factoring in the human element (that is, how we drove the two cars differently in response to their contrasting dynamics).

Exterior Styling
First, though, a word about styling, both inside and out: The previous Toyota Yaris model had body shape about as edgy as a jelly bean, but the redesigned 2012 Yaris is a big improvement, giving this entry-level car some of that tuner-car attitude. (Though don't expect to see a Yaris, not even the sportier SE version, appearing in The Fast and The Furious 6.)

The similarly sized Toyota Prius c has a much snappier shape than the larger models in the Prius lineup, partly because it's 15 inches shorter and 500 pounds lighter than the Liftback version. So we'd give equal compliments for both the Yaris and Prius c on exterior aesthetics.

Interior Styling
Not so on the interiors though. Here the Yaris has an advantage. Earlier versions of the dash had the center-stack layout with a shroud over the gauges, which the Prius c still uses as well. This setup makes for easier reading even in bright sunlight, but on the Prius c we noticed this cowl would occasionally shake on rough, snowplow-scarred sections of road. We prefer the more conventional position of the gauges in front of the driver, as seen on the latest Yaris. We also found its upholstery and trim materials to be less Spartan as well.

Getting back to the driving experience, we'll confess that the Yaris inspired us to apply a heavier right foot, simply because it's more fun to handle, with a tossable feel. The Prius c has a more sedate, subdued character, as it's lugging all those extra batteries and a 60-hp electric motor. So we'll admit that our fuel consumption readings are not precisely scientific, in line with that proviso, "your actual mileage may vary."

Highway Miles
On level highway driving, the mileage rating of the Prius c actually decreases, because the 1.5-liter engine is providing propulsion instead of the electric motor. Given the extra weight and detuned engine configuration, we privately wondered whether the Hybrid Synergy Drive's 99-hp, 1.5-liter powerplant could clamber above the tree line. It turns out our apprehensions were unfounded, as it gamely grunted up the long grades.

While the throttle response was acceptable, we nonetheless found ourselves taking full advantage of the hills and dales, increasing our speed on the downsides in anticipation of the climbing the next ascent. At some point, however, you inevitably lose that momentum, and a really heavy uphill slog begins. As we headed to the highlands, the digital readout on the Toyota Prius c indicated fuel consumption in the high-40 mpg range.

Mountain Driving
On the other hand, the lighter Toyota Yaris simply scampered up the foothills of the Sierras into the mountain passes, and we only occasionally slapped the shifter sideways from Eco mode (overdrive) to regular drive. That transmission feature gives the Yaris a sportier feel, and makes the most of the powerband of the four-cylinder engine.

By comparison, the Prius c serves as merely an efficient form of transportation. With the digital gauges and lack of traditional engine readouts, this computerized conveyance feels more like fingering an iPad than driving a car. Although intellectually stimulating, the experience of grabbing the wheel lacks some hairy-knuckled passion.

In addition, its narrow, hard tires (with lower rolling resistance) tend to hunt and wander at times in the shallow tracks left by long-haul truckers. On the other hand, on winding mountain roads, the Prius c's lower center of gravity (due to the placement of the battery pack and other components), is an advantage, so the chassis hugs tight turns with minimal body lean. Ditto for the Yaris.

Switchbacks and Inclines
While the Prius c's handling was better than we expected on twisty switchbacks, the engine complained with a annoying drone as it struggled to make it up to the ski slopes of Mt. Rose, while the Yaris didn't seem to mind as much. No surprise, then, that the average mpg readout on the Prius c plummeted to 22 mpg. On the other hand, when coasting downhill from Donner Pass, we saw as high as 99 mpg on the display. And the batteries recharged in just a few minutes.

After driving from the Bay area to the Reno/Tahoe area and heading back, we had to refill the 9.5-gallon tank in the old mining town of Dutch Flat, CA. Based on the distance covered and fuel consumed (397.4 miles and 9.1 gallons), the plucky Prius c managed 43.6 mpg. Given the steep inclines, some high-speed cruising at 65-plus mph, plus a two-person cargo for most of the trip, that's still an impressive figure.

Mileage Comparisons
The Yaris didn't quite make it as far on this route on a full tank, as it averaged 33 mpg, by our calculations. As noted earlier, we'll admit to driving more aggressively, simply because we enjoyed the feel of the car better, so even better fuel efficiencies are no doubt possible.

So which car would we choose? From purely an economic standpoint, the Prius c clearly has the advantage. Even though you pay $6,445 more for the Hybrid Synergy setup ($16,800 versus $23,245 as tested, that sum could be recouped in several years if you frequently drive around town with gentle pressure on your right foot, and fuel prices continue to escalate.

By our calculations, the Prius c achieved roughly 10-mpg (or more) better fuel consumption than a Yaris on a real-world route. So if you drive 15,000 miles per year, in round numbers you'd burn less than 350 gallons in the Prius c, compared with nearly 455 gallons in the Yaris (assuming you keep your foot in it like we did). So roughly speaking (and literally here as well), if you venture to the high country like we did, you'd save 155 gallons a year, or $620 in annual fuel costs. That means you could recoup the extra cost of the Prius c in about 10 years. Or probably even less, if you keep your foot out of it.

Driving Style
In addition, keep in mind that there are other advantages of a Prius c, such as access to the HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lanes in congested areas. And maintenance costs should be lower as well, since there's not the usual collection of engine accessories (starter, alternator, power steering pump, accessory belt), and the brake pads shouldn't require replacing due to the regenerative braking system (at least in theory).

Of course, being thrifty isn't everything in life, and consuming fewer hydrocarbons comes at a cost in both comfort and ride quality. After all, you have to live with a car long-term, and you presumably want a happy relationship. So if you often take longer drives on rough-and-tough routes beyond city limits, the 2012 Toyota Yaris delivers a more satisfying experience overall, and is still frugal in fuel efficiency. While not fast and furious, it's certainly fun and friendly. www.toyota.com

Pros and Cons
Prius c Pros:

•Perpetual-motion fuel efficiency with a videogame dash display
•Snakes through traffic and parks as easy as a Segway
•Potential cast member for the Big Bang Theory TV show.

Prius c Cons:

•"I think I can" performance on long, steep grades
•Easily intimidated by pickups and SUVs
•Interior as warm and inviting as a Frigidaire.

Yaris Pros:

•Latest model boasts no-embarrassment styling
•Decent handling for the dollar
•Acceptable combination of economy and livability

Yaris Cons:

•Vin Diesel's next vehicular victim
•Flimsy package tray for cargo area
•Still somewhat a girly man's car

Yar is Word, thanks for finding this and posting it .

1. Driving them as differently as they admittedly did, IMHO, kind of defeats the purpose of comparing them.

2. Some people might think that the comparison should be non stick vs non stick. I think it should be likely most efficient vs likely most efficient which, IMHO, would mean using a 5 speed manual Yaris.

3. I wonder who was doing the driving. The BEST MPG I ever extracted out of a tank in my Yaris was from on I-80 east of Reno (Winnemucca I think) to San Francisco at a little bit over 48 MPG. Given that, and taking into account the climb from San Francisco to the Emigrant Gap area but also my climb from Reno to Emigrant Gap, I'm amazed they only got 33 MPG.

4. Poor reporting. The eligibility for any Prius with gasoline propulsion to use the HOV lanes in California with a single occupant ended on July 1st, 2011....before the Prius C was introduced. The only Prius currently eligible for single occupancy in the HOV lanes is the Prius Plug In. See www.arb.ca.gov

5. The Pros and Cons section left me shaking my head and wondering the age and sense of self of the author.

[tooter]

"That means you could recoup the extra cost of the Prius c in about 10 years."

A stick shift Yaris would add another $1000 to the price difference the Prius would need to recoup, and the increased fuel economy of a Yaris manual transmission would add even more years to the break even point. And by the break even point you would need to buy a new $1,200 main battery.

Prius C= Fail.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by tooter

A stick shift Yaris would add another $1000 to the price difference the Prius would need to recoup, and the increased fuel economy of a Yaris manual transmission would add even more years to the break even point. And by the break even point you would need to buy a new $1,200 main battery.

Prius C= Fail.

Exactly, re manual transmission analysis as part of the financial equation.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

5. The Pros and Cons section left me shaking my head and wondering the age and sense of self of the author.

Same here, they can take their opinions (that's all they are) and stuff 'em!

[tk1971]

Had my 08 Yaris base with MT for 30,000 miles. 90% freeway, I got a total calculated average of 40.9 MPG over those 30k miles. I try to go between 60-65 mph with the occasional 70-75 mph, depending on the situation, but I'd say 90% of my freeway miles were in the 60-65mph range.

After my wife got her C, I couldn't resist but to take it to the outlet (a few blocks from my office). Even loaded up with the family, and going a little faster than I would if I was commuting, I got around 47.5 mpg for the round trip.

At around 47 mpg, it doubled the MPG of the wife's former car, so I'd say we're going to enjoy the C.

[edmscan]

Originally Posted by tk1971

At around 47 mpg, it doubled the MPG of the wife's former car, so I'd say we're going to enjoy the C.

Contrary to what some people here at YW will tell you (yes there is some bias here, likewise on sites like PriusChat there is a Pro Prius bias. So just depends if you believe what you read.) .. the Prius C is actually a fun car and it is quite nice. I challenge everyone here to take one for a test drive to see what you think.

I drove in one just this past Saturday and I am always just amazed how quiet the Prius C is. Sure it is more money than the Yaris (to me this isn't a huge issue as most new cars are more than a Yaris) .. but it is still a Toyota so it has some wonderful technology that makes it a pretty cool car.

I am certain that your wife likes / loves her new car .. and I would have to say that if money was no object I would probably buy a Prius C myself (the main reason is that I feel that I could get much better gas mileage out of a Prius .. and yes at this point it is just a fun gas mileage game) But seeing as how I haven't won the lottery yet .. I will just have to love my Yaris.

I have only had a Yaris for 4 months now, but I have to say that the looks and the overall car really have got me impressed. I just am a little scared about how well the Yaris will perform in the cold of winter coming up. Probably no worse than my Honda Accord I had previously. Only time will tell.

[bronsin]

My auto Yaris got 42 mpg in Canada last summer where the speed limit is 62 mph and the gas is enthanol free.

Your "break even" numbers are optimistic. 10 mpg divided into 100,000 miles = 1000 gallons of gas @ $3.60 a gallon is $3600.

At 100k miles youre a little more than half way there.

The average owner isnt saving a dime.

My brothers 1983 Renault Alliance got 53 mpg on the highway.

[Thirty-Nine]

Originally Posted by edmscan

Contrary to what some people here at YW will tell you (yes there is some bias here, likewise on sites like PriusChat there is a Pro Prius bias. So just depends if you believe what you read.) .. the Prius C is actually a fun car and it is quite nice. I challenge everyone here to take one for a test drive to see what you think.

I drove in one just this past Saturday and I am always just amazed how quiet the Prius C is. Sure it is more money than the Yaris (to me this isn't a huge issue as most new cars are more than a Yaris) .. but it is still a Toyota so it has some wonderful technology that makes it a pretty cool car.

I am certain that your wife likes / loves her new car .. and I would have to say that if money was no object I would probably buy a Prius C myself (the main reason is that I feel that I could get much better gas mileage out of a Prius .. and yes at this point it is just a fun gas mileage game) But seeing as how I haven't won the lottery yet .. I will just have to love my Yaris.

I have only had a Yaris for 4 months now, but I have to say that the looks and the overall car really have got me impressed. I just am a little scared about how well the Yaris will perform in the cold of winter coming up. Probably no worse than my Honda Accord I had previously. Only time will tell.

I thought the Pruis c was quiet under about 40 MPH. Above that I was appalled with the amount of wind noise on the Prius c I reviewed, most of which seemed to come from around the side mirror areas.

In my opinion, the Prius c is great around town, but was way down on power when passing at highway speeds. I didn't think it was terrible, but it's not the way I would spend my $23k (which was how much my test model was). Just my two cents.

And for me, the break-even point on a $23K Prius c compared to a Yaris (also equipped with a non-manual trans) was about 7.5 years.

- Andy

[edmscan]

Originally Posted by bronsin

the gas is enthanol free.

I don't know where you got the impression that gas in Canada is ethanol free. We DO NOT have laws that mandate that the gas stations must post the ethanol content (like is the requirement in most US states), so it is very hard to tell the content of ethanol in your gas.

I am only aware of ONE gas station that ever posted their ethanol content .. and that was because they felt that ethanol was good for the environment. This didn't last very long .... and they went back to not advertising it.

You may want to check out this site .. to see ethanol free gas stations in the US and Canada. http://pure-gas.org/

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by edmscan

I don't know where you got the impression that gas in Canada is ethanol free. . http://pure-gas.org/

You have broken my heart.

[edmscan]

Probably the only ones that you can rely upon (in Canada anyways) as being Ethanol free is gas such as:

Esso (Parent company Exxon Mobil) .. "Supreme" Octane 91
Shell .. "Gold" Octane 91

It seems that the 91 Octane gasolines tend to be the ones where the Ethanol has not been added. So you have to ask yourself .... is it worth it ?

From what others have told me (here on YW) it is NOT worth the extra money to pay for these high end gasolines. I figure that I would need to get an extra 60 km out of a tankful in order to justify the increased cost. Maybe I will try a tankful ... to see how the "Ethanol free" gas compares. I normally use either Esso or Shell gas in their 87 Octane formulations.

I contacted both Shell and Esso .. and they told me that there is no requirement for them to display the ethanol content of their gasolines in Canada. (unlike much of the US where there is a requirement in most states to show Ethanol content generally over 1 %)

[cali yaris]

Your "break even" numbers are optimistic. 10 mpg divided into 100,000 miles = 1000 gallons of gas @ $3.60 a gallon is $3600.

$3.60? Lucky you. It's $4.20 yere. Five years from now? Gas prices will be higher.

I don't finance cars, I like to buy them, so for me, the Prius is attractive.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

$3.60? Lucky you. It's $4.20 yere. Five years from now? Gas prices will be higher.

I don't finance cars, I like to buy them, so for me, the Prius is attractive.

The numbers dont lie. When a Prius makes economic sense I will buy one.

But I cant forget my brothers 83 Renault that got 53 mpg on the highway almost 30 years ago!

Buy what you want. Just as long as you realize you arent likely to save any money with a Prius.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

$3.60? Lucky you. It's $4.20 yere. Five years from now? Gas prices will be higher.

I don't finance cars, I like to buy them, so for me, the Prius is attractive.

I paid $3.46 on 8-30 . Down in Alvin (opposite side of our metro) it is $3.39 at Buc-ee's (a Texas convenience store and travel center chain). I find the traffic to be much worse in your general area than where Bronsin is (in addition to the gas price difference), so I can see the real world numbers for you (at least for a C) being closer together than they would be for Bronsin....I can see why the C might be an attractive choice in your location. The standard Prius?.....the numbers would be further apart, IMO, even with the supposed slightly better City MPG. I agree with you re paying for the car -- I don't finance cars either.

[b20vteg]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Just as long as you realize you arent likely to save any money with a Prius.

you will... it just takes a very long time.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by b20vteg

you will... it just takes a very long time.

I want to keep people out of the "hybrid trap" as much as possible. Its not in my interest for Toyota to sell cars that hurt people and take advantage of their laudable intention to do right by the ecology at the expense of their financial situation.

Whats in my interest is a cheap, dependable car that gets 30-40 mpg.

What would be even better is one that gets 40-50 mpg.

I dont know if youve noticed but the practical out the door price of something like a Yaris is fast approaching $20,000. Its not there yet but my 2001 ECHO was $13,100
write the check. My 1980 Subaru Hatchback was $4600 which is what I wrote the check for. I made $15,000 in 1980.

I make $40,000 a year now. And the numbers show that figure is going DOWN not UP.

Do the math.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by bronsin

I want to keep people out of the "hybrid trap" as much as possible. Its not in my interest for Toyota to sell cars that hurt people and take advantage of their laudable intention to do right by the ecology at the expense of their financial situation.

Whats in my interest is a cheap, dependable car that gets 30-40 mpg.

What would be even better is one that gets 40-50 mpg.

I dont know if youve noticed but the practical out the door price of something like a Yaris is fast approaching $20,000. Its not there yet but my 2001 ECHO was $13,100
write the check. My 1980 Subaru Hatchback was $4600 which is what I wrote the check for. I made $15,000 in 1980.

I make $40,000 a year now. And the numbers show that figure is going DOWN not UP.

Do the math.

Haven't you heard? We're supposed to have the same disincentives to use our vehicles that people in SOME other parts of the world have. Someone said so.

Driving lots of miles is my one kick between the legs to the environment and I try to minimize it as much as possible by driving a high MPG car. I know a few families who are smaller versions of 19 Kids and Counting (but not for the same reason) and chastise me for driving the miles that I do (because I don't need to).....these people are pretty hypocritical re this issue in my book.