Yaris Spanks Hybrids in Environmentally Friendliness in Dust to Dust report

[Yaris Revenge]

Originally Posted by BailOut

This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.



This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.

BailOut, I agree with you that the Prius is more a household vehicle than anything else. I've never spotted a fleet Prius, and a hybrid as a secondary vehicle honestly makes no sense.

However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. How many 1970-1980 model Japanese cars do you see running around out there? Not nearly as many as you do American cars. I'm not saying one's better than the other, I'm just saying that people tend to hang on to the American cars longer (why I can't say), thus ultimately the American cars are the ones racking up the higher mileages.

~YR

[PetersRedYaris]

Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge

...However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. ~YR

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

[spkrman]

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

x2...

This is why everyone tends to unload their cars before 100k, or swap it for a beater... yet if you have a toyota/etc you just keep on chuggin, you know it'll last another 100k without flinching.

btw by end cost... I'm sure a used, POS but good mechanical condition metro would lay the smack down on any hybrid or yaris :)

[Yaris Revenge]

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.

Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

Very, very possible. But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage?

~YR

[nsmitchell]

I see no proof that the Prius lasts as long as some may think ON AVERAGE. Sure some Priuses may last over that mileage. For example, did you know that leaving a Prius to sit without driving it for over two weeks will void the warranty on the battery? Well now! http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...s_battery.html. Only hybrids will have this issue. How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.

[flint_mica_manual]

Originally Posted by nsmitchell

How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.

Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!

[nsmitchell]

Originally Posted by flint_mica_manual

Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!

So you don't think the HYBRID SYSTEM is complex. To make the electric motor and gas motor play nice nice together IS complex. They have lots of sensors and onboard computers to make sure they run smoothly together and max out mileage. Also a Prius at $25K is being sold by Toyota at a loss of about $3K. So a Prius is actually a $28K car. Why? Because it is quite a bit more complex than a Yaris at $13K. Good Grief! More expensive components that make up the hybrid system. More expensive to make, more, more more, etc... More complex machines to build the more complex parts. Those machines need servicing, maintenance by more skilled people ...yadayadayada... This all adds up. Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.

[flint_mica_manual]

Originally Posted by nsmitchell

Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.

This isn’t about having an open mind. It’s about critical thinking.

I have searched high and low to find info about this supposed story, and the only thing out there is the original study, right-wing sites linking to the original article (with cutesy latte-drinking-hollywood-loving-liberal-pinko-status-symbol comments from right wing filth to boot), and a bunch of forums talking about the original study. Where is the peer review? How did they get their data? Who PAID for this “study”? NOBODY freaking knows.

These are the hybrids that are or have been on the market for the last 20 years. Where is the data for these cars? WHY is the Toyota singled out in this “study”?

I, quite honestly, am done “debating” this nonsense. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and I’m not going to change my mind until I see something other than flame wars and ONE dubious “study” that is ridiculous in its conclusions.

1989 Audi 300 Duo
1994 Audi 80 Duo
1996 AC Propulsion tzero (primarily electric vehicle; 80 mile PbA, 300 mile Li-ion(2003) EV-mode)
1997 Toyota Prius (first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid automobile) Japanese market only
1997 Audi A4 Duo (Audi became the first manufacturer in Europe to mass produce a hybrid vehicle. Their hybrid vehicle is powered by a 66 kW 1.9-litre TDI-Engine and a 21 kW electric motor)
1999 Honda Insight 2000 model
[edit] 2000s
2000 Toyota Estima hybrid (Japanese market only)
2000 Toyota Prius US market
2002? Mazda Demio e-4WD (Japanese market only, used for traction assistance)
2002 New Flyer DE60LF (diesel-electric hybrid articulated bus)
2002 Dyna Diesel Hybrid (Japan only, Diesel Hybrid)
2002 Honda Civic Hybrid 2003 model
[edit] 2003
Renault Kangoo (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle)
Suzuki Twin
Toyota Alphard Hybrid
Toyota Prius (5 seat midsize) 2004 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
[edit] 2004
Honda Accord Hybrid 2005 model
Ford Escape Hybrid 2005 model (released in late summer 2004)
General Motors city bus
[edit] 2005
Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra Hybrid 2006 model, Mild hybrid
Honda Civic Hybrid 2006 model, second generation
Lexus RX 400h 2006 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Mercury Mariner hybrid
Toyota Kluger/Highlander Hybrid 2006 model
[edit] 2006
Lexus GS 450h 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Saturn VUE Green Line 2007 model, Mild hybrid
Toyota Camry Hybrid 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Toyota Estima/Previa hybrid minivan, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive (Japanese market only)
[edit] 2007
Nissan Altima Hybrid (limited sales)
Saturn Aura Green Line Hybrid (BAS) 2008 model, Mild hybrid

[IllusionX]

for traveling short distances... ppl have also modified their prius to plug-in charge the vehicule every night.
some ppl have managed to get over 250 USMPG!!!

search plug in hybrid on google. Though, it would be a really bad idea if your home electricity is charcoal or oil powered...

[Andrew Chalmers]

Uh... so how do these generalizations apply to the individual driver? These "reports" say what?

btw - nsmitchell... most people assume things to be false until proven to be true... it isn't up to other ppl to demonstrate that the report is wrong - but up to the authors to demonstrate that its true. Assumptions made about consumer/driver habits without data = baseless assumptions.

[graywolf_14]

It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.

[spkrman]

Originally Posted by graywolf_14

It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.

is that your way of stickin it to the man for not letting you have a yaris?

[graywolf_14]

no I had one before and this was my plan with that one. I will probley end up getting a motor cycle and eather sell the pontiac or keep it for a toy. I would rather have a mustang or a monte carlo ss or somehting like that. Shoot I would love a talon tsi or a z car but right now I cant seem to get anything. I just like the thought of a 300hp big motored car right now. Hell or I will keep it and get a small truck I could have a use for a truck.

[wagoneer]

If you are plugging in a Prius to the wall at night....

then 250 mpg means you burn less gas, but you are burning more coal from the power plant to charge it up.

If we could plug our cars in and be totally electric and get infinite miles per gallon of gas (because we don't burn any) we would still be burning coal.

Coal is around 55% of power production in the u.s.
Nuclear is around 21%
Natural gas is ?
"renewables" are ?

nothing is free

to be eco friendly, we should just kill ourselves.

[nsmitchell]

Excerpt from the report.

Second is the issue with the actual production of the batteries for the hybrid cars. It is only slowly being revealed that the nickel batteries that hybrids use are not environmentally friendly. The nickel for the Prius is produced in Sudbury, Ontario. According to Demorro, ” This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.” Toyota produces 1,000 tons annually. The production of the batteries does not end in Canada, the nickel is then sent off to a refinery in Europe and then off to China and finally it ends up in finished form in Japan. This in turn uses more energy to create the batteries since it involves many factories all over the world.

End quote.

Anyone who doesn't want to believe this, well that's your right. If you own a hybrid and it makes you feel a little sad so you lash out at the report. Go right ahead. If you own a hybrid and you feel good, great!

If you want a fuel efficient car, get a hybrid, but don't go around thinking you are saving the earth. That's all. The Yaris is a much more "Earth Friendly" car. That is my point to this thread.

Here is a quote from http://canadianobserver.wordpress.co...e-environment/

If you read the article they said that as it stands sub compacts leaver a smaller environmental footprint and that that would change in the near future as the battery technology and service life of hybrids increased. It was hardly a full on shill article for big industry. Indeed it simply cautioned making too much of Toyota’s claim hyped claims about the prius. I still am of the firm belief that we need to get people out of their cars Hybrids or no and into high quality public transit. Cars simply lack the capacity to deliver the economies scale that are required both in terms of outputs and inputs.

End quote.

If you think this is shill you just aren't paying attention.

[flint_mica_manual]

Originally Posted by nsmitchell

The nickel for the Prius is produced in Sudbury, Ontario. According to Demorro, ” This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.”

Toyota buys nickel on the open market. They don't own or control this plant.
Second, Sudbury damage was almost exclusively caused from 1870-1970, there has been drastic cleanup, re-greening, and environmental improvement since then.

The amount of nickel in a Prius battery is insignificant.

The amount of nickel used for batteries is well under 1% mined, most is used for steel, if you use stainless flatware you could say you are more responsible than a Prius driver.

The astronauts in the Apollo program went to Sudbury *not* "because it was considered the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape" but because the nickel deposits in the Sudbury area resulted from a meteor impact long ago. The astronauts were studying the closest thing they could find to a meteor impact crater. The story that the pollution desolation in the area in the 1960s and 70s was the basis for the NASA work is an urban myth, or at least inaccurate. So the story here, about pollution from hybrid cars' batteries, related to Sudbury, related to the NASA work, is inaccuracy piled upon inaccuracy. The author is either ignorant about the facts or is intentionally deceptive, but deserves scorn either way. Industrial pollution *is* a serious concern but no good comes from poor journalism.

The article describes Sudbury, Ontario, as "the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape" and adds "Fumes emerging from the [nickel] factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in outer space."

Here are a couple of recent photos of this "rocky lunar landscape":
http://images.fotosearch.com/bigcomp...K29-320758.jpg

http://www.daverado.mvps.org/images/Ramsey-Lake.jpg

40 or so years ago, before the passing of modern pollution laws, there was some truth in the allegations against Inco (although *not* against the Prius, which has only been available for the past few years!); although even back then, logging and forest fires were as much responsible for the damage to the environment as mining was. But since 1972, Inco has reduced its sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent (as have the other mining companies in the area); and Inco and Sudburians have between them planted more than 11 million trees on more than 14,000 hectares; for which they have been praised by the Ontario Ministry of Environment; by Pollution Probe, a leading Canadian environmental group; and by the United Nations Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro in 1992.

Sudbury has also won several conservation awards, including the Canadian Environment Achievement Award (1990), the Chevron Conservation Award (1992), and the Elaine Burke Memorial Award for Community Achievement in Active Living and the Environment (1996-1997). For more about Sudbury, see the Sudbury website at http://www.city.greatersudbury.on.ca..._cgs〈=en.

The Mail on Sunday article also quotes David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada as saying: 'The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside." The article omits to mention that David Martin was referring to the situation prior to 1972!!

Following the publication of the Mail on Sunday article and a similarly misleading article by the same reporter the following day, the Mayor of Sudbury wrote the following letter: http://www.daverado.mvps.org/Letters...eplyToMail.pdf, to the Editor of the Mail on Sunday, which the newspaper declined to publish; and Inco wrote a similar letter to the Editor: http://www.daverado.mvps.org/Letters...eplyToMail.pdf , which the newspaper again declined to publish. For a newspaper to not only publish allegations they clearly knew to be false, but then to refuse to publish letters from the Mayor of the town, and from the company, that the allegations concerned, is extraordinary behaviour.

I hope you'll agree that this is dishonest journalism of the worst kind, clearly written simply in order to promote the Mail Groups strongly anti-environmental agenda.

[nsmitchell]

Well how do you explain this!!!

[Yaris Revenge]

Whoa! Flint did his homework! Right on!

NS, WTF?

~YR