Yaris Sedan Deadening and Sound system upgrade

[sqcomp]

How was his stage height and width?

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

How was his stage height and width?

Height was 2-3 inches above dashboard (1 or 2 inches under my chin)

Width was not good on SQ tracks like Left, Right Center about 2-3 inches inside the a-pillars very narrow, in some songs was just a little bit wider but that was because MIds+Tweets where aiming at center of the car, more on axis and reflexions on the side glass made it feel slightly wider but once we opened the windows the width was gone.

Center image was not in the center, way over to the left side almost touching the Mids right in front of my face, Time Alignment wasn't done properly the same for x-over points, didn't aloud for Point source! Mid-Bass (LOWs) cross above 600 Hz and Mids sounded hallow in 3.5" PVC caps

D.

[TOLMACH]

Originally Posted by derickveliz2

Height was 2-3 inches above dashboard (1 or 2 inches under my chin)

Width was not good on SQ tracks like Left, Right Center about 2-3 inches inside the a-pillars very narrow, in some songs was just a little bit wider but that was because MIds+Tweets where aiming at center of the car, more on axis and reflexions on the side glass made it feel slightly wider but once we opened the windows the width was gone.

Center image was not in the center, way over to the left side almost touching the Mids right in front of my face, Time Alignment wasn't done properly the same for x-over points, didn't aloud for Point source! Mid-Bass (LOWs) cross above 600 Hz and Mids sounded hallow in 3.5" PVC caps

D.

How did his system sound?

Do you guys buy stuff to listen and enjoy music or you buy music to listen to the stuff that you installed ?

[derickveliz2]

At PJM...

My amps are behind front seats...



D.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by TOLMACH

How did his system sound?

Do you guys buy stuff to listen and enjoy music or you buy music to listen to the stuff that you installed ?

He's system is miles behind mine (install and tunning), he has mids and tweeters similar to what I did at the beginning (see image below)

He doesn't understands PLDs, Time Alignment, Imaging, staging, linearity, tonal accuracy, depth, point source, width and center image along with other stuff, so his HU (another P99 like mine) makes every thing sound, crisp and clean but the 3D factor is missing from the equation.

So far I didn't have to pay for any Reference Tracks (I would now that I know how important and beneficial are), I do enjoy my music specially after using Tracks to improve my system.

It's not just about "sounds good and loud", to me the COOL FACTOR is 3Dimensional!

D.

[derickveliz2]

Did I forget to mention that the BASS was from a focal sb25a1.... Here is where the I6SW shines! not only because it's up front but this 10" woofer in a ported box falls short compare to the I6SW.

The I6SW it's so cool, it's not like other woofers that hurt your ears and make all the car shake, it's like a hard thump that hits your chest.



vrs...









D.

[derickveliz2]

Some other info about deadening... NOTE: this is some information I saved trying to help another car-audio enthusiast, you can take this as an advice, but not like a book, many people have their own opinions and we respect them all.

Noise comes from the road, tires, engine. Focus on the floor, wheel wells, fire wall!

Yes treat the doors like speaker boxes, you will need some extra mat to give the metal some mass and ccfoam to prevent ratles + MLV to block road noise.

Next: (measure in square feet)
-doors
-floor
-wheel wells
-quarter panels

Basic rule of thumb you only need 25% of a flat area to cover with Tiles, these are expensive and it's good to spend the money here, for example, a door is 4 sf you need 1 sf of tiles

CLD Tiles I recommend you buy them with Don Sambroke or Second Skin

LINK 1

LINK 2

also buy at least 2 ropes of butyl LINK 3

Glue for MLV and heavy duty velcro in LINK 4

You can also buy 1/4" ccfoam from Don in LINK 5

now all these is what you need for deadening your car for road noise, and rattles...

but for example the doors you will need more mass from any kind of MAT (don't use CLD Tiles too expensive), you can buy any one you like, I got mine from Rick at RAAMAT it's cheap and works OK, LINK 6

so lets say you have 100 sf of area to work with (I did 100 so you can come up with a percentage)

100 sf of MLV (this one you can buy cheap here LINK 7 or buy from Don or Second skin, but it's a little bit more expensive.

100 sf of ccfoam, get 50sf of 1/8" and 50sf of 1/4" Don sells you the best one in this class, Second Skin is a little bit more expensive. You can also get this stuff from Rick but it's very thin but sticks like a steaker LINK 9

25 sf of CLD Tiles from LINK 1

and 50 sf of any MAT you like, in my case from RAAMAT ** I was just checking with raamaudio and they don't carry any more the cheap stuff, try to call Rick and ask him if he still carries the old RAAMmat I . the new stuff is here LINK 8

or if you want to get all at once and save on shipping call Don Sambroke and tell him my name (Derick Veliz) [I did this at the beginning then I needed some extra stuff and I got it at LINK 7



D.

[patm]

Nice summary for reference.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by patm

Nice summary for reference.

Thanks PATM,

here is a sketch (a door section)... deadening:

NOTE: this is more for a door with a Mid-bass speaker in other words for FRONT Doors!



D.

[derickveliz2]

I was going to attempt tuning using Pink noise and my ears according to these methods (LINK1, LINK2)

well... don't tell any body I did this when I was driving to work! this is not an appropriate way of tuning, but I got good results, and I wanted to share with you!


It really works! in a few words, I can say it gave my system a BOLD feeling! Bass is much better and I can crank the volume a little bit more with out distortion!

Stage height, width and depth was improved!

I get a better feeling of layers in my stage now!


Image got much better because I Had stuff gathered on the left and right and center wasn't perfect:

*_*_*______*______*_*_*



Now I get a better distribution: (in songs)

*__*__*____*____*__*__*



Now the funny part is when I play my favorite songs they sound really good, very natural and they sound great! but when I play tracks like the 7 drums for example my image gets screw up: I don't care really, because when I play music is much better than before.

This is my stage with the 7 drum track:

*_*_*_____*__*______*_*





These are images of (A)Auto TA/EQ, after tuning with this (B)method.

(A) AUTO TA



(B) AFTER




I will do it again in a quiet place and with the engine turned off. will share results after...


D.

[sqcomp]

That's strange...on the sub measurement. We all know it's up front and really close. Not saying that it's "wrong" per se, just strange.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

That's strange...on the sub measurement. We all know it's up front and really close. Not saying that it's "wrong" per se, just strange.

On the Auto TA, EQ.... Yes but that's the default on the HU, just think about it...


zero (0) delay is 155.39 inches is the max number in the P99 scale, so zero (0) is the max delay, as the location of each speaker is closer to ears delay increases. Yes my woofer is in front, and my farthest speaker(s) are my Mids and Mid-bass, and you can see that reflected on the image below



These are TA after performing the method shown below the pictures, the only difference is that I did use Pink and White noise:





D.


Copied from "fcarpio" a member of DIYMA:

" A better technique for "ear" time alignment?
There is a technique for adjusting your time alignment by ear in this forum. It has to do with playing white noise and listening for the "warble" effect as you adjust the time. That technique has NOT worked out for me as I suck when it comes to listen for the white noise "warble".

I just want to share another technique for time alignment that comes from another field I have an interest. Let me start by discussing the technique and how I applied it to car audio. The technique in question is a method for getting two (or more) microphones in phase. This technique is well known by musicians and recording engineers. It is used for miking guitar cabinets to get a fuller sound and it is also good for noise cancellation. Two microphones in phase record a bigger and fuller sound, specially good for metal (distorted) guitars. Two microphones out of phase are good for spoken word in a noisy environment where one mic will capture the voice and noise and the other only the noise with its phase inverted. when you add up the two signals you get "noise cancellation" and the voice remains intact.

How do you get the mics in phase?
The human voice and the guitar are mono signals, but for this example I will pick on the guitar (no pun intended). We first get an idea of where do we like the mics to be by listening to the signal while we move them around in front of the guitar cab. Then we proceed to fix the first mic in place. Now the fun part, we are going to monitor the signal from both mics in "mono" with the second mic set to 180 degrees out of phase. We are going to start moving the second mic around the location that we liked until the monitored mono signal gets to the thinnest and weakest point. Now we fix the second mic in place and switch the out of phase setting back to normal and your mics are now perfectly in phase.

How do I apply this technique to car audio?
Easy. The only requirement is that you have to be able to feed a mono signal to your speakers and be able to isolate the sound of two speakers at a time. For this example I am going to assume you have a mono sub, so the first speaker pair to time align would be the sub and your right mid speaker. You are going to have to adjust the crossover a bit to get some overlapping frequencies, say 80Hz to 250Hz on both. Also try to keep the levels to sound even as it will make it easier to listen to both speakers at the same time. We are going to start the time alignment of the mid with respect to the sub. The technique only works if you can set the speaker that we want to time align out of phase, you may have to do this manually if you don't have a dedicated switch for it. You don't need white noise, your favorite song actually works best. In my opinion, a recording that has a bit of everything as far as frequencies go works very well (Bass for subs and mids, female voice for mids, guitar solos and cymbals for highs, you get the idea). Start delaying the signal of the mid a little at a time and listen for the signal to start cancelling. You are going to look for the point where it sounds its worst (weak and thin). Once you find it that will be your setting and you can now bring the mid back in phase. Now your right mid and subs are in phase. The next step will be to mute the sub and unmute the other mid. Don't forget to revert the settings on your crossover, both mids should have similar crossover settings now. Now you are going to do the same thing with the left mid, you are going to time align the left mid with respect to the right mid. The only time alignment you are doing at this point is to the left mid only as the right mid is already aligned with the subs. You are going to set the left mid out of phase and start increasing the time and listen for the signal to start to cancel and to sound weak, thin and unfocused. Find the worst sound and that is where you want to be. Now the fun part, bring the left mid back in phase and you will immediately hear the sound JUMP in front of you. That is because your two mids are PERFECTLY time aligned.

Now you are going to mute your right mid and unmute your left tweeter. What you want to try to do is to time align speaker that are opposite to each other (one left and one right) and try to have their frequencies overlap a bit but safely. If you have your crossover set to not overlap you will not be able to align a mid with respect to a sub, nor you will be able to align a tweeter with respect to a mid. If there is no frequency overlap there will be little or no cancellation to listen for when out of phase. Just repeat the process until you are done.

I hope this helps and please post your comments with the results you get."

[sqcomp]

That has to be the longest explanation for flip your speakers out of phase, adjust the time alignment until they sound their worst, and then flip the phase back into alignment and you'll be set.

Sounds like a fun excersise!

What I'm wary about is the absolute need to have all speakers level on their output. While I agree that this is a neat technique, adjusting level setting is an essential tool that needs to remain on the plate as an option to adjustment.

For me, I've never had any phase issues after a tune, first of all I do flip phasing and adjust already, but I don't leave it there or start at that point of setting phase.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

That has to be the longest explanation for flip your speakers out of phase, adjust the time alignment until they sound their worst, and then flip the phase back into alignment and you'll be set.

Sounds like a fun excersise!

It is!

You made it sound so easy,

Now I have to find time to do it at 0 mph in a quiet area. Also I should level of each speaker pair first, and start with Sub+Left Mid-bass since the sub is a little over the right. I'm still thinking I should start from the Right Mid and work my way up to tweeters and down to Mid-bass and woofer

D.

[sqcomp]

I have another roadmap that is a little more involved. Holler at me if you want a step by step after you try this.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

I have another roadmap that is a little more involved. Holler at me if you want a step by step after you try this.

OK


D.

[derickveliz2]

I was in Boston today, 70 F beautiful day!

[derickveliz2]

My tires are wearing out, I can hear they are noisier than before!

D.