So Long All - Moving On

[SeriousBlack]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

I don't think you should have to take what I was mentioning into consideration when choosing a car because you are Canadian and the rule of law in your country wasn't violated as it was in mine....and your tax money didn't go to help with the subversion of those laws, my tax money did. I only asked that the rule of law be followed. That isn't a political request. Obama made it political by the favoritism that he showed to the UAW Health Plan. As Charles Lane wrote in the Washington Post, the UAW got a much better deal than it would have from a private equity firm. And yes, I think that a managed bankruptcy would have would have been better generally for competition because it would have eased the burden of union contracts. Also, the government still could have been involved money wise in a managed bankruptcy.

I don't think a continental economy can survive without a vigorous, dynamic manufacturing sector, I just think a continental economy can survive without a unionized manufacturing sector. Auto plants in Right to Work states in the US South are but one example of this.

I don't think unions need to exist for us (as North Americans) to have a viable local economy 20 or 30 years from now.

Re the link to Forbes, I read that and a couple of other articles on the subject. It is my understanding that GM and Chrysler were the only companies that took a bailout for their manufacturing operations. Re the 'financing arms' ( of Toyota, Ford, BMW, etc. as well) the Fed essentially stepped in to recreate a 3rd party market for the loans as that had dried up during the credit crises. We'll never know if some other entity would have stepped in to fill that role if the fed hadn't. Re the loans to Ford for electric car research, etc., we don't know why that was something Ford was interested in. Perhaps advance knowledge of Obama's increased CAFE staandards that some feel will add at least $5,000.00 USD to each car.

Your story tugs at my heart for 2 reasons:

1 -- Your car. It is beautiful, and you should enjoy it. When I first got my DL (at age 16 + 3 months) I had a car to drive that my dad bought in case he was without a company car. It was an old first generation Firebird convertible...burgundy with a white top. Your car (as you likely realize) has some styling cues from the first generation Camaro and the first generation Firebird.

2 -- Mentioning how your daughters feel about your new car. I don't have any kids, but my cousin adopted as a single mom and she and my aunt and I traveled to bring her back to the family. We met her on what was legally her 1st birthday. A few weeks before she turned 6, she asked me if she could call me dad. I said no, you only have one parent, but you know I love you more than I have ever loved anyone. I told her I don't think I'll ever have kids, but I promised her that If I did I might love them as much as I love her, but not more. Emotionally, she is like a daughter to me. She just turned 11. I want her to have the same adventurous spirit re driving (and traveling in general) that her great grandfather had, and that her grandmother and I have. I'll be as involved in that vehicle wise (re $$...and time if desired) as her mom will allow .

Hi - a few comments. First, I think you should be commended for such a respectful, courteous reply. It's clear you feel strongly about the US assistance plan. I know this isn't a forum for political debate so I won't dwell on this, but there's a few points of which you should be aware of. In 2009, the federal government (Canada) and the provincial government of Ontario loaned GM $1.4 billion. That loan was paid back in full with interest by 2010. As for "legalities", I think we'd agree that a good lawyer can argue heads is tails and tails is heads depending on what his/her retainer is (I'm a prosecutor so I know of what I speak).

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the U.S. and the principles upon which the nation was founded. However, your nation, like most, is still struggling with what role, if any, government should play in its affairs. In the 1980s, the government of Alberta (an oil producing province) was outraged when our federal government created a national oil company and wanted to ensure Canadians were not paying more for our own oil than foreign customers. They objected to what they termed "federal government control" and wanted their own federal government to have no hand in "their" resources. In the past year, two large Canadian oil companies have been sold to the China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC), the first sale with a majority interest, the second with a 49% share because so many Canadians were outraged we were sacrificing control of our own resources to a self-professed communist state with serious questions about its commitment to fundamental human rights.

The point of this is in just over 25 years, the landscape has changed - I think our commitment to our nations and way of life has to as well. While we kick and scream at each other over what our federal political parties and own governments are doing, each day corporations that have leeched tax subsidies and resources from our "free" nations are selling our fiscal independence to entities that could give a damn about our freedoms or those of our children. I personally never saw GM or Chrysler seeking assistance in that light. I (and I'm sure you and others on this forum) know a few friends who work at GM/Ford/Chrysler dealerships. They were deathly afraid for their jobs and livelihood, but are very grateful for having pulled through.

It may well be that GM, Chrysler, Ford et al are equally brutal, selfish corporate giants that don't care about North America. After all, Chrysler is now owned by Fiat! I just think it's important that North America remains a relevant player in an enterprise so important as the auto mfg industry, and I'm not so beat up about the notion of government stepping up to defend our national interest in cases such as this. It was a loan, after all.

Finally, as for your story, I am truly touched by what you've written about the 11 year old in your life. It just goes to show that no matter how many things we point to in our lives that make us different, we have a lot more in common than we care to admit to.

Peace.

[toy_toronto]

Originally Posted by harda toenail

Also, to people talking about american being "junk" and whatever... don't buy one. The OP bought a car he likes that makes him happy. That's what life's about.

^ Agreed. As they say "To each his own".

That is one nice looking ride, OP!

[kimona]

Top down fun! Convertibles are cool. Enjoy.

[RedRide]

I don't know where some of you may have been but, American cars are now every bit as good as Japanese cars and even surpass them at times.

Yes, at one time they were garbage but American manufactures heeded the wake up call.

However, the public's perception took a while to change and that's why some needed a loan...... it was not a "bail out" as that false characterization is just a political talking point for certain people. The greedy and irresponsible banks got a "bail out".

Ford and GM now both have a higher market share than Toyota (their closest competitor by far) in the US now that the public has realized how good American cars now are.

I believe that the auto industry would have survived just fine without a government bailout. What the bailout did was reward unions and punish conservatives who owned dealerships. Both GM and Chrysler went bankrupt, even after the bailout. All the US government did was hand over a large share of the stocks to the unions and ignored the rule of law to do it........

That is total a falsehood perpetuated by the foxes and believed by those who have no idea of what really happened and just want to bust the unions wherever they may be.
GM and Chrysler never went "bankrupt, they just did some serious reorganization. "Let them go bankrupt" is just a battle cry code for 'bust the unions".

They also are oblivious to the fact that all the benefits and good working conditions that they now enjoy were fought for and won by labor unions. It's amazing how some can enjoy milk and honey while condemning cows and bees.

They also have no idea how many related jobs the auto industry supports.

What the bailout did was reward unions and punish conservatives who owned dealerships.

Really??
Fact is, because of the loans, the union workers actually took a cut in pay and it kept the dealers in business.
The government rewarded the unions? Really? Any more ridiculous lies you wish to replete?
Is a complete fool who believes everything they are told by the lying RUSHing FOXes.
However It's a wise man who honestly seeks the truth.

Now the US auto industry is thriving .

BTW, I was a member of the UAW (Ford) for over 12 years and I know first hand that Auto workers earn every penny they are paid!
Now....., I never did your job so, how would you feel if I now told you that you are an overpaid moocher who is a burden on the company you work for?

[edmscan]

Originally Posted by daf62757

Your comments about sinking low to buy American is somewhat disturbing. Is that some kind of elitist Canadian comment? Do you realize that most American cars are also Canadian too? So would you sink low enough to buy a Canadian car too?

I don't know what you are getting at but I wouldn't buy a Canadian made car either. The funny thing is that you say yourself "Nothing beats a Toyota". Why am I being criticized for preferring Japanese made cars ?

In my mind cars made in other countries still are not as reliable in the long term. (there are a few exceptions but I am not going to get into that) All I am saying is that I will not buy cars from American automakers .. as in my mind they are not as reliable. Give me a Honda or Toyota that is made in Japan any day.

[WeeYari]

Originally Posted by daf62757

Your comments about sinking low to buy American is somewhat disturbing. Is that some kind of elitist Canadian comment? Do you realize that most American cars are also Canadian too? So would you sink low enough to buy a Canadian car too?

Since the OPs Camero which is sparking all this nonsense is actually Canadian made, let's ammend edmscan's statement to a more correct North American build.

Enjoy the Camero Serious. I'm really loving the domestics going retro with the North American muscle era.

[RedRide]

Oh yeah.... almost forgot. Enjoy your Camero Serious.

BTW,.... to no one in particular.......All modern mainstream cars, no matter where they are assembled, are all made with parts manufactured in many different countries .

So, there is no longer any such thing as an all American or all Japanese car, They are all a conglomeration of international parts to one extent or another.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by SeriousBlack

Hi - a few comments. First, I think you should be commended for such a respectful, courteous reply. It's clear you feel strongly about the US assistance plan. I know this isn't a forum for political debate so I won't dwell on this, but there's a few points of which you should be aware of. In 2009, the federal government (Canada) and the provincial government of Ontario loaned GM $1.4 billion. That loan was paid back in full with interest by 2010. As for "legalities", I think we'd agree that a good lawyer can argue heads is tails and tails is heads depending on what his/her retainer is (I'm a prosecutor so I know of what I speak).

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the U.S. and the principles upon which the nation was founded. However, your nation, like most, is still struggling with what role, if any, government should play in its affairs. In the 1980s, the government of Alberta (an oil producing province) was outraged when our federal government created a national oil company and wanted to ensure Canadians were not paying more for our own oil than foreign customers. They objected to what they termed "federal government control" and wanted their own federal government to have no hand in "their" resources. In the past year, two large Canadian oil companies have been sold to the China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC), the first sale with a majority interest, the second with a 49% share because so many Canadians were outraged we were sacrificing control of our own resources to a self-professed communist state with serious questions about its commitment to fundamental human rights.

The point of this is in just over 25 years, the landscape has changed - I think our commitment to our nations and way of life has to as well. While we kick and scream at each other over what our federal political parties and own governments are doing, each day corporations that have leeched tax subsidies and resources from our "free" nations are selling our fiscal independence to entities that could give a damn about our freedoms or those of our children. I personally never saw GM or Chrysler seeking assistance in that light. I (and I'm sure you and others on this forum) know a few friends who work at GM/Ford/Chrysler dealerships. They were deathly afraid for their jobs and livelihood, but are very grateful for having pulled through.

It may well be that GM, Chrysler, Ford et al are equally brutal, selfish corporate giants that don't care about North America. After all, Chrysler is now owned by Fiat! I just think it's important that North America remains a relevant player in an enterprise so important as the auto mfg industry, and I'm not so beat up about the notion of government stepping up to defend our national interest in cases such as this. It was a loan, after all.

Finally, as for your story, I am truly touched by what you've written about the 11 year old in your life. It just goes to show that no matter how many things we point to in our lives that make us different, we have a lot more in common than we care to admit to.

Peace.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. My aunt and I refer to life as 'Before' and 'After'. We know we were happy, fortunate people enjoying our lives before my then 1 year old little cousin entered the picture....but the thought (now, and during the entire intervening 10 years) of a world without her alive and in it is so unimaginable that we wonder how happy we really were before such a wonderful force of nature. I know I didn't care as much about what would happen to the state of the world (on many levels) after I'm gone before she was around. She has such an incredible mother, that the rest of us just love her and subtly try to plant 4 words in her head -- listen to your mother. I know the incredible feelings and experiences I've had are experienced manyfold by her mother, and from your words I imagine you feel the level my cousin does with your daughters....as parents, being the final arbiters of discipline, guidance, responsibility etc. parents deserve the credit.

Expanding on what you were writing about feelings toward children illustrating similarities, wanting the children in our lives (our own or not) to have wonderful lives in a better world may be the only thing that crosses just about every political, religious, or economic difference in the world.

Just out of curiosity, I typed 'What would have happened if the Canadian government had not lent GM over 1 billion dollars in 2009' into the DuckDuckGo search engine. One of the hits (number 3) was the article 'The Auto Bailout and the Rule of Law' by Todd Zywicki, the George Mason University Foundation Professor at the George Mason University School of Law, in Virginia. I certainly learned a few things from the article that I didn't know beforehand (that it was only the Chrysler bondholders that were ultimately 'hung out to dry', etc) but his perspective commits my feelings 'to paper' far more eloquently than I can. The URL for the article is:


http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publi...-the-rule-of-l


Among the highlights :

- That GM was an obvious candidate for a 'standard' Chapter 11 (like other corporations) because it was "financially distressed" and not "economically failed".

- "And yet, loose as it was, the TARP legislation did not permit the use of the allotted funds to bail out automakers. The car companies, after all, were not "financial institutions" (Professor Zywicki noting Boston University Law Professor Gary Lawson's text from the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy.

- In a September 2009 report, the Congressional Oversight Panel of TARP noted that the basic legality of the auto bailout was one of 'considerable debate' and characterized by 'ambiguity' in the legislative language and congressional intent. However, no specific instance of 'ambiguity' was cited. This was never tested in court because standing on the issue was denied to Chrysler creditors by the bankruptcy court, which argued that the specific mechanism behind the bailouts wasn't relevant to their claims. The Supreme Court of The United States later held any further challenges to the legality of any aspect of the Chrysler case to be moot, without offering specific justifications.

- In the Chrysler case, creditors who held the companies SECURED bonds were steamrolled into accepting 29 cents on the dollar, while the underfunded pension plans of the UAW, who = UNSECURED creditors, received 40 cents on the dollar.

- No unpaid 'deficiency claims' (which creditors here could certainly hold) were allowed in either the Chrysler case or the GM case.

- U.S. Bankruptcy laws were overhauled in 1978 precisely to eliminate the practice of rushed corporate bankruptcy sales, but the practice was allowed re Chrysler and GM.

- In April of 2009, Obama (in a speech) publicly attacked a group of hedge funds that were among Chrysler's creditors -- who were merely standing up for their contract and property rights -- as profiteers, criticizing them for their unwillingness to make the same sacrifices as other investors but not, of course, UAW members. ()

- The only group of Chrysler's bondholders who complained at every stage of the process and continued to press on were the Indiana State Teacher and Police Pension Funds, but the Supreme Court of the United States refused to hear their case.



Your sage reference to good lawyers being able to argue that tails = heads and heads = tails depending on the retainer made me chuckle for two reasons:

1. You're right. Two lawyers on opposite ends of the thought spectrum on this issue could pick through this article and, with supporting information from some other sources, could each write what some would find to be compelling briefs on the subject. And the article I found is intended to be just that, an informative article. (It just, as a whole (not just the highlights I noted), illustrates my perspective and the concern I have re any long term effects (any precedent that could be cited in the future)).

2. There are more lawyers in my family than any other profession or occupation. They range from just starting out to (on your side of the aisle) the head of the DA's sex crimes unit for a large county and (on the other side of the aisle) the managing partner of an office of one of the 10 largest law firms in the world. I'm not a lawyer, but there is quite a bit of 'shop talk' at various family gatherings and I've heard your 'sides of the coin' point alluded to before (although not with the wonderful candor of your words).



I hope all of the enjoyment you were seeking when you purchased your convertible comes to pass over the course of your ownership, and that your daughters enjoy it as well.

Peace

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by RedRide

I don't know where some of you may have been but, American cars are now every bit as good as Japanese cars and even surpass them at times.

Yes, at one time they were garbage but American manufactures heeded the wake up call.

However, the public's perception took a while to change and that's why some needed a loan...... it was not a "bail out" as that false characterization is just a political talking point for certain people. The greedy and irresponsible banks got a "bail out".

Ford and GM now both have a higher market share than Toyota (their closest competitor by far) in the US now that the public has realized how good American cars now are.




That is total a falsehood perpetuated by the foxes and believed by those who have no idea of what really happened and just want to bust the unions wherever they may be.
GM and Chrysler never went "bankrupt, they just did some serious reorganization. "Let them go bankrupt" is just a battle cry code for 'bust the unions".

They also are oblivious to the fact that all the benefits and good working conditions that they now enjoy were fought for and won by labor unions. It's amazing how some can enjoy milk and honey while condemning cows and bees.

They also have no idea how many related jobs the auto industry supports.


Really??
Fact is, because of the loans, the union workers actually took a cut in pay and it kept the dealers in business.
The government rewarded the unions? Really? Any more ridiculous lies you wish to replete?
Is a complete fool who believes everything they are told by the lying RUSHing FOXes.
However It's a wise man who honestly seeks the truth.

Now the US auto industry is thriving .

BTW, I was a member of the UAW (Ford) for over 12 years and I know first hand that Auto workers earn every penny they are paid!
Now....., I never did your job so, how would you feel if I now told you that you are an overpaid moocher who is a burden on the company you work for?

1. Some might say that you are using the talking points from a different point of view.

2. You are looking at yourself as a worker. Why are you assuming that the person you are answering is another worker who works for a company? Perhaps he is a business owner (small or not), who isn't guaranteed anything and is taking a chance. Such a person wouldn't find your analogy meaningful. The additional cost per vehicle re the UAW has been calculated by various people. Some people (likely a business owner who in particular circumstances isn't guaranteed anything, and others) might scratch their heads as to why that would be justified when they look at auto plants in Right to Work states in the U.S. (that are not UAW plants) and are producing a quality product.

[nookandcrannycar]

To All :

The link on my post #26 doesn't work (and I don't know how to fix it). I'll try to add it to this post directly below:

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publi...he-rule-of-law

To RedRide:

[Quote] GM and Chrysler never went "bankrupt, they just did some serious reorganization.[QUOTE)

Incorrect. Bankruptcy can allow for reorganization, but both GM and Chrysler did go through bankruptcy. See the section entitled: The Bankruptcy , from the above link. if the above link doesn't work, the title of the article is: The Auto Bailout and the Rule of Law. It was written by Professor Todd Zywicki and is located on national affairs.com

The government rewarded the unions? Really? Any more ridiculous lies you wish to replete?
Is a complete fool who believes everything they are told by the lying RUSHing FOXes.
However It's a wise man who honestly seeks the truth.

Yes, the UAW was unjustly rewarded. See the last two sentences of paragraph three under the section 'The Bankruptcy' in Professor Zywicki's article. In the Chrysler case, the SECURED bondholders received 29 cents on the dollar and the UAW Pension Plans -- who were UNSECURED creditors, but possessed better political connections -- received more than 40 cents on the dollar. I would contend that it is wise to include an example using FACTS (as I just did), rather than a random demonization of popular targets that are on the opposite side/side that you disagree with. If you read Professor Zywicki's article, you will see that he cites references...and they aren't Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.

[RedRide]

Yes, the UAW was treated just like any other bond holder....however, the UAW bonds were/are used to help finance worker pensions so, they got a somewhat higher pay out. Some want them (the innocent workers) to be discriminated against and their pensions demolished?

BTW, the UAW also represent many workers who build machinery and other vehicles other than car and trucks.
These would include things like tractors and other agriculture machinery, and military vehicles, etc that have nothing to do with GM and Chrysler.

Now..... as far as bankruptcy.. ...for that to have actually happened, private investors would of had to step in with cash to prevent the total liquidation of the companies involved. That never happened. Those are the facts and are a matter of public record .

So,as the last resort, to prevent the liquidation and total demise of Chrysler and GM, the government stepped in and offered loans on the conditions that they reorganize.
The government wisely did not want GM and Chrysler to cease to exist as that would have been an economic disaster for the country and it's manufacturing base.
True bankruptcy without adequate financial backers a totally different animal. It appears that some have little understanding of the laws and/or consequences involve.
Corporate chapter 11 is vastly different than personal bankruptcy.
Most companies that survive chapter 11 are those that also have private investors stepping in, hoping to profit from their investment at a later date.

Also, the fact remains that the UAW/workers agreed to a pay cut to keep the companies alive. This is also a matter of public record.

One can find problems with any government program or agency and a negative spin can be put on anything/anyone to make it look bad...... that is a a given. However, all negative spin on this issues comes down to union/worker bashing as it's root motivation.
Have we as a country become so depraved that we no longer value honest labor with a fair wage paid for it?
The great industrialist and auto manufacturer Henry Ford comes to mind as one who really understood the true value of his labor force and paying a fair wage.

As the saying goes, "you can't please all of the people all the time" and this is certainly true with any corporate restructuring or, particularly with bankruptcy. Some will always loose more than others. If true bankruptcy was in involved with GM and Chrysler, the biggest losers would have lost even more ..... not to mention the thousands who would have lost their jobs that were unrelated to the auto industry.

Yes, some creditors lost big as the companies were not liquidated and demolished to pay them. This was the was the price of preserving the US auto industry and manufacturing base.

Where is the outrage for the Banks bail out (due to bad Bank management) which was an outright gift from the taxpayers? The incompetent bank CEOs even gave themselves higher multi million dollar bonuses after the bail out ....all at taxpayer's expense. They never paid back a penny or were they required to. Only the blind can't see pure blatant corporate greed here but, all some want to do is bash innocent auto workers who took a pay CUT.

In the end, the GM/Chrysler loans will not cost the taxpayer anything. What some are still up in arms about is that the UAW still exists.

The facts are still out there for those who seek the truth .

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how keeping GM and Chrysler alive was bad for the GM and Chrysler dealers. Did they prefer to sell and service weed wackers?

[fybur]

Woah. Can we calm down from this political/economical arguement.

The OP made this thread just to say goodbye and show what his new car will be.

Why some have gotten in to this debate is past me.

If you want to continue this debate just PM each other !!!

[RedRide]

^ ^ ^

Your proof is?
BTW, I would wager that the majority of all major car dealers are republicans

I take comfort that the facts are on my side and I do not have to prove what is in the public record.
If you think that I am going to argue that 2+2 = 4 you are mistaken . I graduated grade school many decades ago.

I said what needed to be said as a member of the UAW and someone who always seeks the truth.
This thread will be closed soon as you blatantly brought partisan politics into it
For those who seek the truth, I commend you.
For those who choose to stay ignorant, I pity you and all the innocent people you will accuse and condemn in your life time.

[screenprintr]

If I could afford the tickets, I'd drive the Camaro in a Heart beat. One of the towns I have to drive through is a Speed trap. Even if you look at the cop crosseyed they'll follow you all the way home or at least to the border.

Nice car.

[thebarber]

I like camaros

[DeathBeard]

Nice car congratulations

[RedRide]

To be honest, I was never into GM but....... GM has come a long way recently and the Camero is a great looking car with great reviews.

[Astroman]

I've seriously had enough of this crap. We have a political thread where anyone can spew their political diarrhea. This is not that section. My apologies to the OP, I know you just wanted to share you're new set of wheels with us, and I really like it and glad your Yaris is staying in the family, but once the politics get out of hand and a few start resorting to "liberal BS", slamming unions and the president and insulting other members I've had enough.

I was there when Yarisworld almost got tore apart in 2008, so I'm putting a stop to this and one member who received a warning proceeded to argue with me and keep posting negative political nonsense ramblings so they got a one week ban and I'm now forced to lock this thread.

Sorry everyone, but it's usually one who ruins it for the rest.

Please, remember to be respectful of one another ok?