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02-20-2009, 01:24 PM | #19 |
SIPNDEW
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good thread! :)
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02-20-2009, 06:02 PM | #20 | |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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Quote:
I'm running factory alignment in the rear (-0.9 camber, slight toe-in), and -2.5 camber in the front with very slight toe-in. My tire wear is very event all around. If I DIDN'T have all that front camber, my front tires would be wearing on the outside edges. Excessive toe, especially when coupled with agressive camber will cause tire wear issues. But, with neutral toe settings, up to 3 degrees of camber is not a problem even on a daily-driven vehicle. (trivia: The factory alignment on the rear of my Triumph is 3 degrees negative camber) |
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02-20-2009, 06:05 PM | #21 |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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Yeah, I'm sexy like that. You should hear me talk about rev-matching and heel-toe downshifting.
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02-20-2009, 08:54 PM | #22 |
Drives: 07' HB Black Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 50
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will tein s.techs and trd shocks work???
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02-20-2009, 09:16 PM | #23 |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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What you'll eventually conclude with that setup and really think about it is that a) you don't have enough suspension travel so you bottom out both in hard turns and over bumps and b) the shocks don't sufficiently control the motion of the springs on rebound.
Will it "work"? Yes, but not if you want the car to handle as good as it could. |
02-21-2009, 12:51 AM | #24 |
Drives: 07' HB Black Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 50
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Are there TEIN shocks for yaris??? I can't find any ...
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02-21-2009, 10:19 AM | #25 |
Parallel Parking Pro
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Cusco does make a front anti sway bar (part no. 900 311 A26). So its available for a price should you feel the need for it. As I cannot read Japanese I cannot say if it is stiffer than stock or not.
I found that running too much negative camber on skinny street tires reduces its off-the-line traction. It might not really hurt acceleration that much but it seems easier to get the tires to break loose.
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02-21-2009, 10:51 AM | #26 |
Banned
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Location: OH
Posts: 7,787
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Bravo Tamago.
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02-21-2009, 03:48 PM | #27 | |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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Quote:
Running 2 degrees of camber with mild toe settings and doing strictly highway miles might result in 2mm more wear on the inside of the tire vs the outside. Of course, if you do strictly highway driving, you don't NEED that much camber! If you have that much camber, it's probably because you do some mountain driving, or autocross, or track driving... and that performance driving is going to largely equalize the wear. You might still see maybe 1mm more wear on the inside vs. the outside... but who cares? That's close enough. |
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02-21-2009, 03:51 PM | #28 | |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
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Quote:
The only reason Cusco makes it is because people who don't know any better WILL buy it... not because anyone really needs it. |
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02-21-2009, 09:39 PM | #29 | |
Start another Oil Thread!
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talk to Russell teh Pirate, i helped set up their yaris :)
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02-21-2009, 09:39 PM | #30 |
Parallel Parking Pro
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We can't be certain of that fact which is why I stated the bar was available but can't speak for its effects. If it would make the car understeer worse like you say it would, then if you took the front anti roll bar off, would it cure the understeer without having to fit a rear anti roll bar?
I think it is possible that a correct front anti roll bar would reduce front roll, and optimize the tire contact patch in the corners, because too much roll unloads the inside tires. I'm not saying the Cusco would do it, because I've never tried it, but it is a tuning option that should be tried before being written off.
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02-21-2009, 09:40 PM | #31 | ||
Start another Oil Thread!
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Quote:
this guide is to help those who are interested in handling, before tire longevity, etc etc.
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02-21-2009, 09:43 PM | #32 | |
Start another Oil Thread!
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stolen word for word and added to the guide. keep the good info coming guys!
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02-21-2009, 10:25 PM | #33 | |||
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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Quote:
And, yes, removing the front swaybar would probably make the car understeer less (it's been done on some FWD cars with success), but while it might have higher cornering limits, the steering would feel very "sloppy" and it wouldn't be enjoyable to drive. One absolute truth about suspension tuning: It's always a compromise. Quote:
If eliminating all body roll was the answer, every race car and high-end performance car would have NO body roll. Eliminating more body roll (with a larger front swaybar) at the expense of moving the handling balance of the car further in the wrong direction is no solution. This whole discussion is much like arguing about lowering springs with ricers. They think that "lower is better" no matter what... and "stiffer and flatter" is better no matter what. It's simply not true. Quote:
Wanna play with what removing the front swaybar would do? It's easy, just remove an end link on one side. The other side will hold the bar in place and keep it from flopping around, but with one side disconnected, the bar will have no effect. Very simple experiment. Somebody do it and report back. (maybe I'll do it when I have time) If you have a stiff coilover suspension, you might get away without the front swaybar. I tuned the suspension on my old Miata with really stiff springs and NO swaybars. People thought I was nuts, but I wanted to prove that it could be done. It took really stiff front springs to get it to feel right, of course. |
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02-22-2009, 12:31 AM | #34 |
Parallel Parking Pro
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But similarly with tire pressures, generally softer yields better traction. Yet you could go too soft and cause tire contact deformity, or too hard, which causes lack of tread compliance. Hence optimizing is the key, what you have called compromises. But I respect your experience, which I do not have. If I manage to get my hands on this Cusco bar, I'll report back with what I found, at least it'll help others make a more informed decision.
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02-22-2009, 10:27 AM | #35 |
What?
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Adjusting tire pressures does two things: adjusts the shape of the tire's contact patch, and adjusts the effective "spring rate" of the tire.
Today's high-end performance tires have SO much reinforcement of the tread area that tire pressure has little effect on the shape of the contact patch. It stays flat no matter what. If you're on craptastic all-season tires, you might see some change in the contact patch with pressure. (but this thread isn't for those people!) The change in effective spring rate of the tire, as long as you don't distort the contact patch too much, is primarily what we feel with our tire pressure changes when we're tuning a car. We work within the "window" of pressures that the contact patch stays flat in. (with a good performance tire, that can be a big window... like the Azenis... easily 30-50 psi!) Within that window, you're simply fine-tuning a spring rate that has the same effects as changing any other "spring rate" in the suspension. So, whether you're adjusting tire pressure, spring rate, sway bar rate or shock damping, the general effects are the same: Stiffen the front = create more understeer or less oversteer Soften the front = create less understeer or more oversteer Stiffen the rear = create more oversteer or less understeer Soften the rear = create less oversteer or more understeer Those are the facts. You can look them up in any suspension tuning book or even on one of a thousand different suspension tuning guides that you might find on the internet. Knowing that, if you NEED to fit that larger front swaybar to prove it to yourself, go for it. There really is no substitute for experience. I'm all for experimentation that will help people learn and quantify what suspension changes really do. I just hate to see people waste money on parts that aren't going to help them. Do the cheap or free experiments first... like playing with tire pressures... disconnecting the front swaybar... stuff like that. Those cheap rubber donut spring spacers that you can get from JC Whitney for like $20 a set are a GREAT experimentation tool. Toss a set of those on your springs... take some measurements and figure out what you've changed the spring rate to, and document the results. (I tried a pair on the rear of my Yaris, my calcs said it raised the spring rate from about 2.0 kg to 2.5 kg... it was a happy understeer-reducing change, just like it was supposed to be, and it's why I never wanted to fit the 2.2 kg rear springs that came with my K-Sport kit) |
02-22-2009, 03:56 PM | #36 |
§†ęĄ¶‡Ћ-NCP96
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