ABS brakes / Would you buy a Yaris without them?

[SAV912]

My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C

[Blue Y job]

Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.
And I agree that a poorly designed system could interfere with driving fun.
But I'm stickin to my guns on it helping with driving fun. My old 99 Firebird Formula had a Bosch ABS system and you could be blasting down a tight wet (ooh, tight and wet!) mountain road and be on and off the brakes and it just worked great. Not heavy handed, just enough to keep the wheels rolling.

[Flipper_1938]

ABS + VSC = No Fun Allowed

[Yaristeve]

Originally Posted by Blue Y job

Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.

It happened back in about 2000 or so, so it was only 5 years old at the time.

[10peep]

Originally Posted by carnageehw

I'm a driving instructor, and I can promise you that in my 113,000 kms I've braked more with the ABS on than anyone else here. In fact, with every student we practice slamming on the brakes at 60 and 80 kms/hour. That's a LOT of braking.

A few things:

The Pedal WILL PULSATE back at you when you slam on the brakes. But so what? It's not a big deal when you know what that what the ABS does.

In good conditions the abs will only come on with hard braking at about 60km/h, or 40-ishmph. Drive well and you likely never need the abs to come on.

In the snow, I can see ABS being annoying. ABS brakes won't work as well on loose surfaces, and the extra control might be nice.

Other than that one area, I wouldn't want a car without ABS. They work great and studies show they stop you sooner on a dry road. Yes, you can pulse your brakes (threashold braking) but in a real emergency, I'd rather focus on where I need to move the car to and not waste time and energy thinking about not locking the brakes.

I don't really think ABD is a "nanny" any more than power steering is a "nanny".

^^^ This is exactly correct. Perfectly stated (except for the mis-spelling of ABS @ the end ) and the argument should end right here.

Originally Posted by SAV912

My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C

No offense but this^^^=. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them! Hell, 15 years ago hardly ANYTHING had ABS and people made it just fine! Like I said, my 2002 Tacoma does NOT have ABS and Ive towed 4,000 lbs with it and had to slam on my brakes @ 65mph. It did JUST FINE. A car company, especially one like Toyota would NOT engineer a vehicle WITHOUT ABS that would cause a driver to loose complete control over their vehicle in an emergency situation!

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by 10peep

No offense but this^^^=. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them!

Are you glad you have a gas gauge? How about power steering? Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on? Do you drive an automatic?

How about PVR's for TV shows? Facebook for connecting with old friends? Word processing? Photo and video editing? Do you have a digital camera?

You can't point at someone who likes ABS and say "why do you want computers to do EVERYTHING for you!????" It's a total strawman argument. Computers can be very, VERY useful, especially with ABS, which is designed to keep you focused on steering away from something in an emergency.

[Yaristeve]

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Are you glad you have a gas gauge?

Take it or leave it

Originally Posted by carnageehw

How about power steering?

No

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on?

No

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Do you drive an automatic?

No

Originally Posted by carnageehw

How about PVR's for TV shows?

No cable

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Facebook for connecting with old friends?

No facebook

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Word processing?

No (now I have to do my own typing instead of giving it to a secretary)

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Photo and video editing?

No

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Do you have a digital camera?

Yes, but I hate how digital pictures look so for interesting pictures I use film.

Yes, I am a Luddite.

[RedRide]

I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow?

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by RedRide

I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow?

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"

Locking up in loose surfaces (snow, gravel) can help your stopping ability in a straight line. The lock up causes the tires to dig deeper into the loose surface, which can stop you sooner.

Wheel lock on a dry road simply causes the tires to skid OVER the surface, while with ABS, the spinning of the tires helps to grip the ground better.

[Blue Y job]

In the wide variety of conditions and situations that we drive in, I'm guessing 90% of people would be able to stop shorter, and perhaps more importantly, continue to be able to steer, as long as they mash the pedal hard enough to engage the ABS.
It is mostly irrelevant, as most new cars already have ABS.

[onizuka]

Buying an used Yaris with ABS is asking for trouble. Its ABS sensor fails prematurely in snowy driving conditions. There is a long thread about this and it is a very hot topic:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11533

[Bluevitz-rs]

I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Bluevitz-rs

I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!

Unfortunately you have to pay for those things up front. If we could just get T to delete them and charge us less...

[Bluevitz-rs]

ok, why use a calculator when you can calculate longhand on a piece of paper? Because a calculator is faster. It's the same with ABS. Sure you can pulse you brake peddle after you realize you've looked your wheel, but the computer can do it faster.

Why do you think F1 regulates the use of ABS and Traction control (Launch control)? Because it makes the car faster to drive. It lets technology do things faster than a human can ever react and move.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Well, I ice raced for 3 year and can tell you that all those "hindrances" make you go faster around the track. Argue it all you want.

[3cyltrbo]

I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by 3cyltrbo

I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W

Not your fault, you asked a valid question, a few posted some reasonable replies, then for some reason it turned into a debate.

Again, ABS is an excellent safety feature for the vast majority of drivers. In emergency situations, it can and will slow down vehicles in some conditions such as wet or icy roads. In a panic stop, it allows the driver to stomp on the brakes and concentrate on steering the vehicle.

That said, it has its downsides. It is costly to repair, and those in northern climates that use salt on icy roads seem to be more susceptible to it having issues. It can also cause an over-reliance on the system, with some drivers driving more aggressively in anticipation that it will save them in every situation. That is simply not the case.

For the majority, it is a good feature to have. Some of us can live without it, but that doesn't mean it's not a useful thing to have on your car. I wouldn't specifically not buy a car if it had it, but I will also not not buy one because it doesn't. It just happens that two of my vehicles (my Yaris and my Jeep) don't have it. Actually, if I had to make a choice I would much rather not have it on the Jeep, as offroad it is less desirable than it is on.

Cheers! M2

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by PK198105

Electronic nannies = no skills required and in a lot of cases no brain required

Now please don't take it as an insult , it wasn't meant like one. All I'm saying is that the nannies won't teach you anything about driving, basically you don't need to think what could happen

As someone who teaches driving for a living there is no way in hell I ever....ever let people rely on the nannies.

Much like computers for spell check, GCI for action movies or autotune for music, ABS, ESC etc can be helpful tools, but when relied upon too much....it's disaster.

The problem isn't with the electronic aids, it's with people who rely on them too much. As always, good information is the best tool.