New York Times Reviews Yaris... - Page 3 - Toyota Yaris Forums

UberSilver · 03-20-2013, 02:32 PM

I was about to state something similar. More speeds in the same sized box= less robust build. If the top gear(OD)is .7 ratio, extra speeds is just marketing.

In the 60's Yamaha had a motorcycle with an 18 speed gearbox. Now most bikes are 5 or 6 speeds.

bronsin · 03-20-2013, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberSilver

. If the top gear(OD)is .7 ratio, extra speeds is just marketing.

.

Given the expense and increased complexity for zero gain, what it amounts to is nuts!

Amdkt7 · 03-21-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberSilver

I was about to state something similar. More speeds in the same sized box= less robust build. If the top gear(OD)is .7 ratio, extra speeds is just marketing.

In the 60's Yamaha had a motorcycle with an 18 speed gearbox. Now most bikes are 5 or 6 speeds.

In the 60's, most bikes were 2 cycle, they had a very narrow power band. They needed a lot of gears. Now they have 4 cycle engines, and a much better power band.

Again, my point is I want a higher final ratio.

UberSilver · 03-21-2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amdkt7

In the 60's, most bikes were 2 cycle, they had a very narrow power band. They needed a lot of gears. Now they have 4 cycle engines, and a much better power band.

Again, my point is I want a higher final ratio.

100% correct! And the Yaris is a 4 cycle with a wide power band, not needing more than 4 speeds in the auto.

Also, todays 2 cycle motorcycles are 5 or 6 speed.

Again, my point was the final ratio is no different if you have a 4, 5 or 6 speed auto.

The final (OD) ratio is also .7 on the Ford Fiesta 6 speed auto. Same as the Yaris.

Amdkt7 · 03-20-2013, 07:55 PM

More gears can allow you to either use the most efficient rpm range, or the most power range. More gears, depending on the engine can improve FE. It is going to depend on the driver (if it is an stick), or the ECU to make use of the gears. Also, a car with extra gears can have a higher final ratio, without hurting performance. I would love to have a six gear as I would love to see my rpms sitting a little lower when driving 70. Of course, geared that high I would have to downshift more often, but I would have paid more for one more gear if that was an option.
More gears, the closer the ratios can be, and still have a good final ratio.

I was nearly ready to by a different make car in a six speed auto, as I thought it would be efficient enough. I was not willing to buy the four speed automatic, as it was likely to cut into the FE too much.

I think the reviewers are right, customers want at least a five speed in an automatic, as it can improve performance or FE, depending on how it is driven.

UberSilver · 03-21-2013, 01:09 AM

Your missing the point. Your final gear ratio is what gives good mpg. You could have 4,5,6 or 7 speed, but if the final ratio is .7 mpg will be the same.

Now if you talking about a Bugatti or Ferrari with a top speed of 250 mph, than of corse one would benefit from a 7 or 8 speed.

But in the world of 100hp econo cars, 4speed auto is plenty. imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amdkt7

More gears can allow you to either use the most efficient rpm range, or the most power range. More gears, depending on the engine can improve FE. It is going to depend on the driver (if it is an stick), or the ECU to make use of the gears. Also, a car with extra gears can have a higher final ratio, without hurting performance. I would love to have a six gear as I would love to see my rpms sitting a little lower when driving 70. Of course, geared that high I would have to downshift more often, but I would have paid more for one more gear if that was an option.
More gears, the closer the ratios can be, and still have a good final ratio.

I was nearly ready to by a different make car in a six speed auto, as I thought it would be efficient enough. I was not willing to buy the four speed automatic, as it was likely to cut into the FE too much.

I think the reviewers are right, customers want at least a five speed in an automatic, as it can improve performance or FE, depending on how it is driven.

Amdkt7 · 03-21-2013, 09:53 AM

I think you are missing my point. If you raise the the final gear ratio without adding a gear it is a longer step between gears, which means that you will spend more time operating the engine at RPM that are not as efficient (ie, you have to run up to say 2500 RPM before shifting, because the next gear would drop you to 1800 perhaps, which might not pull enough). Adding an extra gear means the close ratios can be kept, and still have a higher final gear ratio.
Nothing sucks more than having to rev the engine in a low gear because the next gear will lug the engine trying to climb a hill.
Thankfully, the Yaris pulls pretty good at even 1200 rpm, so it does not truly need more gears, however I still wish I had a sixth gear when I am on the highway.
This is not a consumer driven trend so much as it is an attempt by manufacturers to reach the cafe standards while still meeting customer expectations for performance.
The Yaris is getting away with less gears due to the nice flat torque curve of it's little engine, but customers are beginning to expect more gears.
I almost went with the RIO six speed auto as it gets around the same gas mileage, but was finally sold on the Yaris when I saw the maintenance schedule (no timing belt). I think others too are expecting more gears, and it is easy to bypass the Yaris for that reason. At only 106 HP it is not attractive, and if you must have an automatic other cars look like a better deal.

Amdkt7 · 03-21-2013, 01:54 PM

It can still benefit from a 5 speed for the auto. You can keep the engine operating at the best RPM with a close ratio tranny, or have smoother acceleration through the gears under heavy power.
To go with that extra gear I would want a higher OD final ratio to keep those RPMs down at highway speeds.
You do have a point if the final ratio is not raised, the gears would be even closer together.

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03-20-2013, 02:32 PM	#1
UberSilver Drives: 08Yaris2D, 88LandCruiser. Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Alameda,Ca. Posts: 476	I was about to state something similar. More speeds in the same sized box= less robust build. If the top gear(OD)is .7 ratio, extra speeds is just marketing. In the 60's Yamaha had a motorcycle with an 18 speed gearbox. Now most bikes are 5 or 6 speeds.

03-20-2013, 07:55 PM	#5
Amdkt7 Returning to Toyota Drives: 2013 L 3dr MT Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 154	More gears can allow you to either use the most efficient rpm range, or the most power range. More gears, depending on the engine can improve FE. It is going to depend on the driver (if it is an stick), or the ECU to make use of the gears. Also, a car with extra gears can have a higher final ratio, without hurting performance. I would love to have a six gear as I would love to see my rpms sitting a little lower when driving 70. Of course, geared that high I would have to downshift more often, but I would have paid more for one more gear if that was an option. More gears, the closer the ratios can be, and still have a good final ratio. I was nearly ready to by a different make car in a six speed auto, as I thought it would be efficient enough. I was not willing to buy the four speed automatic, as it was likely to cut into the FE too much. I think the reviewers are right, customers want at least a five speed in an automatic, as it can improve performance or FE, depending on how it is driven.

03-21-2013, 09:53 AM	#7
Amdkt7 Returning to Toyota Drives: 2013 L 3dr MT Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 154	I think you are missing my point. If you raise the the final gear ratio without adding a gear it is a longer step between gears, which means that you will spend more time operating the engine at RPM that are not as efficient (ie, you have to run up to say 2500 RPM before shifting, because the next gear would drop you to 1800 perhaps, which might not pull enough). Adding an extra gear means the close ratios can be kept, and still have a higher final gear ratio. Nothing sucks more than having to rev the engine in a low gear because the next gear will lug the engine trying to climb a hill. Thankfully, the Yaris pulls pretty good at even 1200 rpm, so it does not truly need more gears, however I still wish I had a sixth gear when I am on the highway. This is not a consumer driven trend so much as it is an attempt by manufacturers to reach the cafe standards while still meeting customer expectations for performance. The Yaris is getting away with less gears due to the nice flat torque curve of it's little engine, but customers are beginning to expect more gears. I almost went with the RIO six speed auto as it gets around the same gas mileage, but was finally sold on the Yaris when I saw the maintenance schedule (no timing belt). I think others too are expecting more gears, and it is easy to bypass the Yaris for that reason. At only 106 HP it is not attractive, and if you must have an automatic other cars look like a better deal.

03-21-2013, 01:54 PM	#8
Amdkt7 Returning to Toyota Drives: 2013 L 3dr MT Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 154	It can still benefit from a 5 speed for the auto. You can keep the engine operating at the best RPM with a close ratio tranny, or have smoother acceleration through the gears under heavy power. To go with that extra gear I would want a higher OD final ratio to keep those RPMs down at highway speeds. You do have a point if the final ratio is not raised, the gears would be even closer together.