GM Govt. Bailout?

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by stuffy

a company that makes cakes does not get their raw material (let's say flour) for free because it's useless without them to make something edible out of it.

If they raised their own wheat and ground it into flour would they owe the local government money because the wheat grew out of the land? How about the people in the local area, since it's on "their" land?

It's not the much of a difference... raising wheat requires land. So does mining tar sands.

Why does the farmer not pay by the bushel for raising corn or wheat but the oil company pays for mining tar sand? Maybe because there is enough money being made to "justify" the reasoning?

Originally Posted by stuffy

but the government got themselves into this trouble by deregulating the banking industry. the only reason why canada's banks are in such good shape compare to those in the u.s. and europe was that our government resisted deregulating the banking sector in the mid 90's.

as far as i'm concerned, industry has proven that they cannot police themselves.

First of all, it was the US Mortgage industry that got into trouble, not the banks.

The cause of all of this was when two US agencies that loan money for mortgages, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, were told to loan money to minorities in order to curb "unfair lending practices". This was done by the Clinton Administration in the 1990s.

For the Reader's digest version go here

http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowi...ynowicz95.html

The original New York Times Article about the disaster, nine years before it happened, go here...

link

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

Canada didn't play this shit and hence isn't in the shit today.

For a very long time Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac have also "bundled" securities. Much longer than the current period. Fannie Mae certificates were rock solid investments, before it became fashionable to Social Engineer via the Banks.

The US Mortgage Industry "followed" suit, a safe thing to do. Too bad that a few bad actors really did entice a few dummies to sign on the dotted line, because their over reach and foolishness is going to hurt an industry which has done nothing wrong except blindly follow the two leaders- Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae.

The people who deserve punishment are Bill Clinton, Andrew Cuomo, and both Dems and Reps who watched this train wreck and sat on their hands because they figured that the Housing Market was a "measure of prosperity".

Gene

[jclo3313]

Gene,
What is the third letter in your name?

[Snyprwlf47]

The problem with Ameriauto is the high labor cost. Ford has been trying to keep up with the small fuel efficient car industry but cant because they would lose money due to labor cost!!!

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by Snyprwlf47

The problem with Ameriauto is the high labor cost. Ford has been trying to keep up with the small fuel efficient car industry but cant because they would lose money due to labor cost!!!

I call
ford Europe has a higher (yup!) labour cost, and they keep up very well with the European and Japanese "small fuel efficient" markets. They just choose not to import the smaller cars and their technology here.... Look at the Ford Focus diesel that just came out - Ford won't import it because "Americans view diesel as a dirty fuel"

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

I call
ford Europe has a higher (yup!) labour cost, and they keep up very well with the European and Japanese "small fuel efficient" markets.

Ford makes their smaller cars all over the globe. Wouldn't surprise me if the Focus were made in Europe and it would not surprise me if Ford got a subsidy or two for doing it there.

Originally Posted by SailDesign

They just choose not to import the smaller cars and their technology here.... Look at the Ford Focus diesel that just came out - Ford won't import it because "Americans view diesel as a dirty fuel"

Also because of NOx emissions... some diesels are pretty bad that way.

Also, perhaps, because the Ford Focus diesel lacks the acceleration needed to compete in US markets. Perhaps the real cause is that the American consumer does not want a slow plodding car?

I'd have sprung for a Yaris diesel. No doubt about it.

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

I call
ford Europe has a higher (yup!) labour cost, and they keep up very well with the European and Japanese "small fuel efficient" markets. They just choose not to import the smaller cars and their technology here.... Look at the Ford Focus diesel that just came out - Ford won't import it because "Americans view diesel as a dirty fuel"

Ford had a diesel Escort here in the USA (one upon a time!) and it was a failure.....

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by Bob_VT

Ford had a diesel Escort here in the USA (one upon a time!) and it was a failure.....

Waaaay back then, I'm sure it was. No-one cared much abouyt saving fuel over here. And to be honest the US Escort bodies were frikkin' HIDEOUS compared to the UK versions.

[PetersRedYaris]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

I call
ford Europe has a higher (yup!) labour cost, and they keep up very well with the European and Japanese "small fuel efficient" markets. They just choose not to import the smaller cars and their technology here.... Look at the Ford Focus diesel that just came out - Ford won't import it because "Americans view diesel as a dirty fuel"

Actually, their main reason is production cost. The diesel engine is built in England where labor costs are very high. They claim if they were to sell the car in the US it would be priced over $25,000 (more than a Prius). And if they built a plant in Mexico to build the engine there (where our Fiesta's will be built) they would have to sell 350,000 engines/year to cover the cost which they claim isn't realistic. I claim BS on that... No wonder Ford is going down with the other big 2, stupid decisions one after the other.

Heres the article- http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ell-in-us.aspx

[steved]

I would give the bailout money to them only if they used it to make new technology, such as hybrid cars and selling them at the same price of current non-hybrid cars, and push to create all electric cars.

Governments should abolish the Unions. This way non-working paid employees in the job banks can be fired, cut the salaries of the way over paid employees. All the heads and management should get a massive pay cuts, no more bonuses. In other words cut out all the fat.

[jkuchta]

Anyone who says a diesel car is slow hasen't been in one in the last 5 years. I rented a 307 hatch last time I was in Europe (2004), and didn't know it was a diesel till I had to fill it up. The thing was quick, accelerated really well, had tones of torque, and didn't sound like a diesel. If I could buy a diesel Yaris (or even the focus) I'd have one right now!

[TLyttle]

Abolish the unions? Sure, go right ahead, put labour back 130 years, back to 14-hour work days (6 1/2 of 'em), your house is owned by the Company, and you buy your meagre groceries at the Company store, hell of a fine idea! Andrew Carnegie lives! He made so much money off the worker he had to put together a corporation to get rid of it. I'm all for that, alright...

If Management was fair, there would be no reason for unions.

BTW, just heard on the news: a long-term employee of GM said that, 25 years ago, there was one supervisor for every 120 workers, now it is one supervisor for every 18 workers. Gee, could that be the problem???

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Abolish the unions? Sure, go right ahead, put labour back 130 years, back to 14-hour work days (6 1/2 of 'em), your house is owned by the Company, and you buy your meagre groceries at the Company store, hell of a fine idea! Andrew Carnegie lives! He made so much money off the worker he had to put together a corporation to get rid of it. I'm all for that, alright...

Kind of doubt it, especially in western Countries. In the US, at least, Union workers do not necessarily make more money than non-Union workers in the same field. They also don't necessarily enjoy more job security.

Might interest you to know that Carnegie had to import workers from Central and Eastern Europe. Native born Americans refused to work in his mills. Probably because they were unsafe and because of the "turns system", where you showed up for work every twelve hours and if the Foreman liked you he let you work for a turn.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

If Management was fair, there would be no reason for unions.

Unions, no doubt, are great bogeymen for the average worker. Each time that my employer was almost organized they ended up giving the Rank 'n File either more vacation days or better wages.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

BTW, just heard on the news: a long-term employee of GM said that, 25 years ago, there was one supervisor for every 120 workers, now it is one supervisor for every 18 workers. Gee, could that be the problem???

You know, every business I ever heard of that was in distress hired more bosses. I don't know why - whether they expected a Strike or needed to "motivate" Staff or what it was the number of bosses increased. I saw this at my first job out of school, where the number of bosses were doubled. Six months later they shut down production. I also heard about this at one other manufacturing firm, they hired more "suits" and then a year later folded up.

I've heard a rumor that they're gonna do this where I work now.... uh oh!

The weird part about GM and their boss head count is that a lot of "Supervisory" tasks have been heavily automated out of existence by MIS and ERP systems. Paper pushers, for the most part. My first job out of school wouldn't exist today because your average Secretary with a bit of Visual Basic could have replaced me.

What are they doing there? Probably on the payroll in case of a strike or because of some silly re-organization or maybe because of the Effect I mentioned before.

Another reason, which is kind of sinister, is that GM may be abusing them by using their salary status to milk more hours out of them, while not treating them like Exempt employees. I saw this trick at my first job. The net result was that the "Bosses" got used for Fill In positions and because they were overworked made dumb decisions that gummed up the works.

When things are going to hell that's when you have to think the most and be the most deliberate. Panic will kill you.

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Listened to a talk show on NPR and it was an interview with the UAW President...... according to him .......... GM Ford and Chrysler are all pointing at the UAW for the high prices...... the UAW has the view that they have been saving the economy....... I nearly ran off the road while laughing. The UAW said that the big 3 are "owed" the bailout money!

This..... he said...... they said...... she said ........ is all BS

[SailDesign]

Doesn't really matter WHOSE fault it is (this is called "BlameStorming", IIRC), the thing is that they do not deserve the bailout. Period.

[CKaelin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/bu...rescue.html?hp

They're hearing us!

[SailDesign]

Quote of the day from the Senate hearings:

"Survival of the auto companies is imperative for America to remain the global leader in innovation," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "We should not drop out of the race before we have a chance to compete."

Hah! Where TF has HE been hiding these last 20 years or so? There is no innovation in Detroit at present, and the US auto industry has been "competing" longer than any other country.

[Bob_VT]

[Thirty-Nine]

I have nothing against American cars by any means. I KNOW America can build a decent car, but I think old-school thinking and poor management are contributing factors as to the poor choices that the Big Three have made as far as car production goes.

As far as bail out, I'm afraid that not bailing them out will be worse than bailing them out. I lost my job last week, and I was in the auto industry (I worked for a supplier of Ford among other aftermarket parts). If it's bad now, a collapse of the Big Three would (could) be catastrophic.