The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

www.fark.com I get allll my news from there.

Interesting news site,definitely gets away from most of the political crap.

[TLyttle]

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

Since when did logic play a part in blaming others for your misfortunes?

[TLyttle]

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

FEMA and the DHS are not where you put "key" people. They've been dumping grounds for second string players, figureheads who get a sinecure and leave the mental heavy lifting to their staff.

A good example of how FEMA operates was the recent Katrina Disaster, where Bush was successfully bullied into crapping millions of dollars onto New Orleans rather than be branded a "racist". I'm sure that his buddies down south made a killing on contracts as well.

The first director of DHS was Pennsylvania's own Tom Ridge. We used to call him "Windbreak Ridge" after the movie featuring Clint Eastwood. The guy was a water carrier for the blue stocking crowd who have kept the Republican Rubes in line for ages, so as his reward he got a Governor's position. I think he had designs on the big job but the Bush people got in line first. So as a consolation prize Bush gave him the job of running the latest US satrapy, which is only really known by their formal subdivision the TSA, which to most Americans are those peeping Toms and Gropers who work in Airports sniffing out terrorists and well endowed blonde women.

You want to hear something really scary? Rumor control has it that Bush wanted some advice on how to set up the DHS. So he hired a man from Russia named Yevgeny Primakov to help him design it. Primakov's job under Yeltsin was running the Sucessor to the KGB's First Directorate. Swell, so our US President was hiring KGB people to help design the DHS.

Gene

[PaidTimeOff]

I find it hilarious that so many people made such a big giant fuss about being able to voice their political opinions 24/7/365 demanding to have this thread created and now it's just sitting here on the third page... Well not anymore, I guess. Bump!

Guess it's only fun when it's taboo eh?

[GeneW]

I live in PA.

Among my "right wing" friends our man from Philly was known as "Senator Sphincter". Arlen has tended to be a bit of a weathervane and I think most of the time he votes per his pocketbook than his conscience.

Arlen nearly lost the last primary to Pat Toomey, who was a pretty righteous right wing sort of guy. Recently Pat has been on the campaign trail, slowly building up support. I do NOT think that Pat would win the 2010 primary against Arlen Spector, if only because the Democrats could trundle out another Bob Casey and win against Pat.


What isn't being discussed is that Joe Biden was "on the phone" with Arlen for a week or so, maybe longer, before Arlen made his big switch.

My take on it is that Arlen was made a deal - he gets some candy to hand out to the kiddies in the metro Philly area. He also gets some higher positions in Committees, perhaps even a chairmanship or two.

In exchange he jumps ship.

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by tomato

You guys ought to move that thread to the off topic discussion, I think.

Let's do so, shall we?

Originally Posted by tomato

Health care: do you really like the idea that millions of Americans everywhere can't afford health insurance right now? Some can, but insurances will turn them down based on pre-existing conditions. What are they supposed to do? Here in California, a simple doctor's visit (consult, 15 minutes at MOST) is $184. That's not some fancy visit in some fancy place, believe me.

Welcome to California, land of high taxes, irrational business regulations, high local and state income taxes, and lots of "Cost Shifting" from Illegals (who work cheap labor for farmers, nannies and garderners for the wealthy, etc.).

California has too much government now... since when is pouring gasoline on a fire the answer to putting out a fire?

Originally Posted by tomato

Is it fair that people who have worked all their lives and saved every penny should go bankrupt when someone gets, let's say cancer? IDK, something sure needs to be done. I don't trust the government anymore than the next guy, but a little bit of regulation to make sure prices don't skyrocket might be a good idea.

Price caps cause shortages... guess you were too young to remember the Gasoline Lines of the 1970s? I remember 'em real well, caused by price caps on gasoline prices. Once the prices were allowed to rise the gas lines vanished.

The same thing happens today in Georgia with "anti-gouging" laws. So instead of paying in cash you pay in time either waiting in line for gasoline or searching out stations which are still selling it. No free lunches.

Originally Posted by tomato

Look at the price of prescription drugs for instance, I mean that is completely out of hand. Many of these drugs (which Seniors require) are long out of R&D, and shouldn't be priced that high. The tax payer is footing the bill

When Vioxx was announced to "cause" angina and heart attack Merch had to 'set aside" $6,800,000,000 for settlements. The FDA trials for Vioxx spanned 18 months, some people were using Vioxx for far longer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4269301.shtml

So, patients are using Vioxx longer than the FDA trials but it's Merck's fault? Guess so... and you wonder why drugs are so expensive!!

Here's a story of the sudden disappearance of vaccine makers in the US - courtesy of President Clinton.

The panel of doctors and economists issuing a report on vaccines last week identified as a fundamental cause of the problem the fact that the government purchases 55 percent of the childhood vaccine market at forced discount prices. The result has been "declining financial incentives to develop and produce vaccines."

The root of this government role goes back to August 1993, when Congress passed Clinton's Vaccines for Children program. The plan, promoted by the Children's Defense Fund, was to use federal power to ensure universal immunization. So the government agreed to purchase a third of the national vaccine supply (the President and Mrs. Clinton had pushed for 100 percent) at a forced discount of half price, then distribute it to doctors to deliver to the poor and the un- and under-insured. As a result:

* Where 30 years ago, 25 companies produced vaccines for the U.S. market., today only five remain, and there is only one producer for a number of critical shots.
* Recent years have brought shortages of numerous vaccines, including those for whooping cough, diphtheria and chicken pox.

The Institute panel in effect said that one of Senator Clinton's pet projects is a bust. As Congress considers Medicare legislation that could do similar harm to prescription drug makers, the vaccine tale is a timely alarm, says the Journal.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=4705

Originally Posted by tomato

Maybe I should just shut up because the health care situation just puts me in a bad mood. Anyway, think about it, even if you voted Republican and hate the very thought of any government involvment.

I don't know the answers either, I just know what Medicare and Medicaid are not doing - controlling the costs of medical procedures. Why is "more of the same' going to fix the problem?

A Republican President and GOP controlled Congress passed the "Senior Drug Prescription Benefit" program by the way. The GOP are simply "me too" Democrats.

Originally Posted by tomato

Health care as it is now in the US is no care at all for the majority of people. It is a disgrace, if you ask me.

The real disgrace to me is that the American people are allowing Congress to borrow money to keep us "in the style to which we are accustomed" from China and Japan, letting us live far beyond our means, while at the same time destroying our ability to manufacture through "Cap 'n Trade" and a whole panoply of control freak horseshit.

Meanwhile they kiss the butts of companies like Toyota, begging them to set up shop in the US.

We're capable of doing Toyota grade work in the US, if we weren't held back by our own sense of entitlement, "class struggle" and insane laws.

This comes to bear on "Health Care" - a nation which pisses away the enthusiasm of the productive classes, and stifles achievement because it's "unfair" must pay the price in terms of poverty.

Japan is half the size of the US in population and has the land mass of California. It's not just MITI and Toyota's special status with their government that makes them to dominant car maker today. It's not Japanese "health care", as Toyota profitably makes cars in the US too.

Toyota listens to the customer. If our Government would keep its meddlesome and vote buying hands out of our businesses we too could compete. There would be excess wealth for more medical services, not free health care and not "equal access" but enough for most folks to buy it affordably.

Gene

[TLyttle]

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally. Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line? Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

The HMO's "right to gouge" was given to it by the US Congress in 1972, by Ted Kennedy. Pl 93-222 1972.

Yes, the same Ted Kennedy who today is "giving America Health Care", a kind of care that he won't be getting as a Senator, gave America the HMO.

Everyone ought to think long and hard about it - if the HMO is so shitty what does that tell you about its architect and what does it tell you about his next "great idea"?

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally.

Don't buy it. "Private" plans and physicians are available in Great Britain, and probably elsewhere in Europe.

In the USSR it was necessary to bribe the Physicians and other health workers for anesthesia, clean sheets and post Op care.

In China patients now pay cash for services - capitalism has arrived in China I suppose.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line?

I work damn hard for my money and my bennies. Why should some lazy dope smoking slacker get the same quality of medical treatment as myself? Why should I wait in line behind them?

What incentive does a Canadian have to work hard to get ahead in life?

Oh, that's right, they don't.... those who work harder get taxed harder, don't they? That's also true in the US, for now anyhow.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

I whip out my BC/BS card, which I pay for every two weeks. I get to the front of the line. I don't wait. I don't grovel to the Docs to get me anything special. They also bug me about my weight, which I'm losing and give me low costs annual exams so that I don't end up getting a stroke in the first place.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.

The Canadian taxpayer has a higher level of per capita debt than their American counterparts, and Canada isn't pissing away money on Carrier Groups, ICBMs and other war toys.

Were it not for Canadian tar sands I have this feeling that Canada could not afford their noble experiment in equality. Maybe they'd have to let the elderly die - as does happen in Great Britain, through starvation in hospital.

Canada is gradually losing Doctors and Nurses, mainly to the US. The average Canadian is waiting far far longer for "Chronic" procedures than insured Americans.


By the way T, NOT ONE US CONGRESSMAN or CONGRESSWOMAN will be covered under Obamacare. They have their own "elite" medical services. Every American ought to think long and hard about it - why does Congress and our Elected Officials have a different medical coverage than us Proles?

Tells me that Obamacare is gonna suck, big time.

Does the Prime Minister of Canada go to a regular Hospital or do they have their own elite care too? I sure hope that Canadian politicians don't have their own elite medical care, what's the point of "equality" if some are more equal than others?

Gene

[GeneW]

British NHS refuses to pay for steroid injections for chronic pain sufferers.

Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.


By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Published: 7:45AM BST 02 Aug 2009
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
Cuts to treatments would save the NHS £33 million. Photo: ANDREW CROWLEY

The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.

Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.

The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.

But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.

Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped.

"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...njections.html

Yes, US Private insurers will also deny treatments... and if you're sick of it you pick a new insurer during "Open Enrollment".

Meanwhile in Britain it's "do or die", but hey, it's fair, isn't it?

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

If I were a Canadian Citizen I'd be asking why those nineteen guys spent months over here, attending flight schools, holding down jobs, taking martial arts classes. If the Canadians let them "slip through" why did the Americans let them become better hijackers during their long stay here?

Especially the revelations that some of the "student pilots" were not interested in learning to land air craft, just take offs and level flight. Landings are important to a lot of pilots, was when I was taking flying lessons, but then again, I wanted to survive the end of the flight.

Gene

[TLyttle]

Don't eat all of that, Gene, some of your information is a bit faulty. As a Canadian, I, too, hear a lot of stuff about long waits, and the lack of availability of some medications that are supposed to be "miracle" cures. We have no more problem getting surgeries and medications than the AVERAGE American. Whatever your health coverage costs you (or your company) is going to be far more than what the SAME coverage costs me, period. If you are lucky enough to be covered, fine, but what happens if you end up being assessed with a "pre-existing condition" and are required to defend yourself against such an assessment? Please don't tell me that this scenario isn't a regular occurrence in the US, the stats say otherwise. After my stroke, my medical coverage, or its cost to me, changed not one whit.

If the Brits (the Canucks are fighting this fight as well) are accepting the US model of private coverage, to the disadvantage of many average people. The Canadian doctors and nurses are lured by that old greed factor, again a US import; so much for the Hippocratic Oath, taken over by the Hypocritical Curse. Even your line about "average Canadians" waiting longer than "insured Americans" points to the real problem: 47 MILLION Americans are NOT insured, many millions more UNDERinsured; some system!

And yes, our Prime Minister (and most of the legislators) uses the public system. And yes, sometimes they depend on other systems, but no more than our (or your) hockey or football players. If we could keep the doctors and nurses we send to the US, things would be easier, and cheaper; see line about "greed". The infringement of the US system on ours is a product of US lobbyists for the HMOs etc: they work hard to find (and tape and photograph) people whose ailments aren't being taken care of right away. Yes, their problems are indeed real, but the blame rests with early political decisions and the lobbying. In either case, the difficulties being reported by, say, Rush Limbaugh, are overblown and sensationalised, American style.

Find some other sources, Gene, not necessarily those who give you information that suits your view.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by PK198105

he will never know he's banned.........

Is he really banned??

[TLyttle]

Me? Not yet...

[ChinoCharles]

Gene's a goner.

[TLyttle]

Whaaat? Why??? I found Gene's repartee enlightening and intelligent for the most part, I guess I'm next....