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Old 03-14-2010, 06:09 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
What I said was: NO damage to motor of any significance.
From my own experience, I would be inclined to say "impressively little" wear. Significance is relative. I tend to keep my cars a very long time. Like 20 and 40 years. (Call me sentimental.) And I dread overhauls. They always seem to result in some sort of complication. And, at the very least, expense... no matter how long the original lasts. It's possible that a certain amount of extra warm up might be beneficial over the very long run. Or... it could be, as you say, insignificant... even in my situation.

It's an interesting topic. Actually "topics", since we have two questions. How do warm ups affect fuel economy under different use scenarios? And how do they affect wear? I was planning on scoping out the easier of the two: fuel economy, this week. But surely Car & Driver, or Consumer Reports, or *someone* with better resources has researched these things.

I just now got back from a long trip and am not too keen on a Google-hunt, sorting out all the credible wheat from the unreliable chaff. But I figured I'd mention.

-Steve
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:01 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
What I said was: NO damage to motor of any significance.

You are preaching 'technical', yet cannot even read correctly. idiot.

I am not saying it will never wear out, I am saying that 11 years of 'start and go immediately' have no real impact
on the thing as a daily driver. you can sit and warm up your car all you want there, Chieftain... all you will
do is waste gas. I can start and go and still have a decent engine at 11 years plus. so there. real world use.

if you race a car that is a different matter entirely. warm ups are needed on race engines.

yes, a warm motor does perform better, but is warmup needed on a daily around town driver. NO.

Whatever. I am not into finite oil or engine analysis on my cars. it is a friggin car, not a nuclear warship. I worry more about steam engines and ceramic impellers in real life.
----
tests were done at 166,340 miles

dyno results were

original dyno run at 2000 miles was
163 hp /234 torque (186 hp adjusted)

166,340 miles run was
168 hp /234 torque (190 hp adjusted)

compression tests at 166,355 miles

1- 178psi
2- 175psi
3- 181psi

4- 188psi
5- 182psi
6- 179psi


all 6 tested on warm engine within 2 minutes

I did these checks because I -was- gonna sell it, but then decided I will never
sell it



Do I know of Blackstone Labs ? sheesh are they any better than Lockheed Martin or Pratt and Whitney at
materials analysis ? want me to send you some NASA stickers ? done with this one. pointless.
Hahaha yes indeed, I must be an idiot. Well I guess the three of us can agree on one thing... That this is a complete waste of time. So this shall be my final post as well on this thread.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:45 PM   #183
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Well I guess the three of us can agree on one thing... That this is a complete waste of time. So this shall be my final post as well on this thread.
Boost Addicted,

I don't think that this thread necessarily has to be a waste of time. It could be a good thread or a bad thread, depending upon how the participants handle it. 127.0.0.1 and I tend toward the "just drive it" opinion. You're the fellow carrying the "warm it up first" side. And that's a very reasonable view. But maybe it seems like we're ganging up on you or something. I don't know.

I'm less concerned about right or wrong, or the winning or losing of an argument, than I am with what useful, helpful, or education information comes out of the thread.

I'm wondering... where is the pivot point? How far or little can you push the throttle before wear per mile stops decreasing and starts increasing... or fuel per mile stops decreasing and starts increasing.

-Steve
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:42 AM   #184
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we drive from start up if possible . Depends if there's frost , ice , or snow on it .
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:44 AM   #185
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The ECO-METER shows good amount of fuel consumption when using the AVERAGE M.P.G. MODE if have to let it defrost thanks to higher idle at start ups and the tranny remains in 3rd gear until car reaches normal operating temperature ( blue light goes out ) .
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:50 AM   #186
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I'm in the drive easy until it warms up crowd. I give it a good 15 sec after I start it then drive very gently and keep the rpms down until it warms up. I clear the ice and snow before I start it. I do use a block heater when it's cold though.

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Old 03-15-2010, 12:24 PM   #187
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Quote:
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and the tranny remains in 3rd gear until car reaches normal operating temperature ( blue light goes out ) .
Yeah, what's up with that? I Just checked by starting and immediately getting on the 60 MPH expressway and the transmission really does wait that long to kick into 4th. In fact, whereas the light goes out at 130F, the transmission actually waited until more like 139F. Although the temperature was increasing fast enough that those events were actually within about 10 seconds of each other.

I'm wondering what the rationale is for locking out 4th at low engine temperatures. I tend to want the transmission to keep the RPMs *lower* when the engine is cold.

-Steve
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Old 03-15-2010, 01:34 PM   #188
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takes ours about 1 mile before it's capable of using overdrive . We drive under 40 m.p.h. to help keep the R.P.M.s down . Also try to leave the heater core on cold to cut off flow of antifreeze to speed up the use of 4th gear . Then turn on heat if needed . Figure less distance for coolant to travel letting the anti-freeze go around engine picking up the heat generated to help with quicker normal temperature operation so blue light disappears and idle drops sooner . Thus saving some fuel . Is a nuisance .

Last edited by Hershey; 03-15-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 03-22-2010, 12:16 AM   #189
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since removal of 4 studded tires and warmer weather the 2010 3 door with auto is now getting 40 + miles per gallon . This is VALERO 87 octane ( 10% ethanol ) at 1 click of nozzle at full speed ( always same pump ) , tires set at 36 p.s.i. , 2 people , some headwinds of 25 + m.p.h. , and an average of 50 m.p.h.. Before were lucky to get 36 . Not sure if summer blend has reached our region as of yet , if not can possibly see more of increase . 1st fill after removal of studded snows the calculated mileage was 44 while the ECO-METER read 41 . Which one should we believe . That's the most the E.M. has ever been off ( wonder if E.M. was only familiar with the studded snows ? ) . Before the E.M. has been only off by less than .5 below the calculated mileage . Either way I'll take it . 44 be nicer . Since the 2nd fill the car lost the 1st bar at 80.1 miles and is averaging 41.1 on the E.M..

Last edited by Hershey; 03-22-2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:07 AM   #190
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Also try to leave the heater core on cold to cut off flow of antifreeze to speed up the use of 4th gear . Then turn on heat if needed .
Note that this practice makes a *substantial* difference. Even in relatively mild winter weather, say 50F, the Yaris is unable to maintain a coolant temperature of more than about 155F at idle with the heater on high. It's 30F here right now and I just got back from a trip to Walmart. I know from experience that with the heater off, the engine reaches 130F and the "cool" light goes off before I get to the Walmart parking lot. This morning, I left the heater on high. It didn't hit 130F until I was almost *back home* on the return trip. And when I pulled into my parking space, the temp was 136F. That's still 4 degrees shy of when the transmission would have made 4th gear and converter locking available. (And the interior wasn't exactly toasty yet.)

The heater on the Yaris can accurately be considered an auxiliary radiator.

-Steve
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Old 03-22-2010, 01:50 PM   #191
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. Literally .
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:46 PM   #192
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All the more reason to use a grille block in the cold months. I just took mine back out last weekend. I'll put it back in sometime in November or December.
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:52 PM   #193
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All the more reason to use a grille block in the cold months. I just took mine back out last weekend. I'll put it back in sometime in November or December.
There was a post on teamswift.net some time back from a guy who lived in (I think) Alaska... or Antarctica... or somewhere. He posted an interesting HowTo on lining the bottom side of the hood of his Geo Metro with a heat reflective blanket with a layer of insulation bonded to the back of it. The idea being to reflect any radiant heat back onto the engine, while providing extra insulation, as well.

As you know, I'm a sort of show-me-the-data kind of guy... so I'm not actually advocating this. But it is, at least, an interesting idea. Especially for perpetually cold climates. I assume that he already used a grille block.

Funny... those fake louvres we see on some cars as decorations (Hi 1979 Lincoln Mark V! I'm thinking of you!) used to actually function, back in the day. The driver had a pull-knob to close them to facilitate warm up. Then again, the driver also had a choke pull-knob and an ignition timing pull-knob. Always remember to pull both of those before trying to start the car. Failing to retard the timing could actually be deadly to the person turning the starting crank.[1] But that issue was a bit earlier, back in the 1900s and 1910s. It was a fellow whose friend was killed in just such a timing/crank accident who invented the electric starter which Cadillac introduced in 1912.

-Steve

[1] Consider what happens when the timing is advanced before TDC.

Last edited by sbergman27; 03-22-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 03-28-2010, 01:02 PM   #194
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I'm in the drive easy until it warms up crowd.
Me too. This morning, I did run a test to get an idea how much (or little) fuel it actually takes to warm the engine to 128F (when the "Cool" light goes off), and to 140F, when the automatic transmission makes 4th gear and torque converter lock-up available. I found the answer to be a bit surprising. At an ambient temperature of 43F, it's only 0.03 gallons in both cases. (Scangauge doesn't go beyond 0.01 gal precision.) The "Cool" light went off just as the readout clicked over to 0.03. This is significantly less than I would have guessed.

-Steve
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:50 PM   #195
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Sounds insignificant when you put it that way. And for someone who puts a lot of miles on their car every day, it probably is.

My typical trip is 3-5 miles. At 40 mpg, that's an average of about .10 gallons per trip.

If I let the car sit and warm up before every trip, I'd use 30% more fuel!!!

(even if you only count the .03 gallons on the initial start-up, it still adds up to 15% of my total fuel usage on a typical day)

Needless to say, I'm in the "drive it easy until it warms up" contingent. I get in the car, buckle my seatbelt, put the transmission in gear (manual trans), release the handbrake and check my mirrors all before turning the key. As soon as the engine is started I'm letting the clutch out and backing out of my driveway!

Unless the air temp is fairly cool (below 60-65 degrees), the "cool" light is usually off after the 3rd stop sign in my neighborhood, just before I turn onto the main road.
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Old 03-28-2010, 06:01 PM   #196
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Sounds insignificant when you put it that way. And for someone who puts a lot of miles on their car every day, it probably is. My typical trip is 3-5 miles. At 40 mpg, that's an average of about .10 gallons per trip.
Yes, indeed. I'm not necessarily *prescribing* anything. My usage is substantially skewed towards longs trips where I get in the car at 6 AM in Alamogordo, New Mexico, and get out of the car, not knowing what time it is, in "What Town Was This, Again", Montana. No one even bothered to find out what the warm up fuel consumption was before having a back and forth discussion of the relative merits of warming up the car earlier in this thread.

I'd just like to see more quantitative discussions.

City driving *is* admittedly a lot messier, though.

-Steve
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Old 03-28-2010, 06:13 PM   #197
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My typical trip is 3-5 miles. At 40 mpg, that's an average of about .10 gallons per trip. If I let the car sit and warm up before every trip, I'd use 30% more fuel!!!
No. Because even driving gently, you'd be using a lot more fuel than the tiny sip the engine takes at idle. And that additional fuel would be used under cold conditions in which the engine would be consuming significantly more fuel per horsepower-second than it would if it had been warmed up (investing that 0.03 gal of fuel) first.

My *intuition* agrees with you. But my intuition could be as wrong as yours. We need to test experimentally. (My bad. I haven't gotten to it.) Otherwise, we're no better scientists than was Aristotle.

-Steve
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Old 03-28-2010, 06:23 PM   #198
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I get what you're saying. Potentially, the fuel used to warm-up plus the first mile or so of driving a WARMED UP engine could add up to less fuel usage than driving a cold engine for a mile or so. Maybe in some super-cold climate this might be possible. I can tell you from my observations in MY climate (Florida, almost always above 60 degrees) using a ScanGauge that eliminating the warm-up gives me better results. I don't need to quantify it more than that for my own purposes.

I'm not a "pure numbers" guy. I understand the physics and usually have a grasp on the math involved, but I "live" the philosophy derived from it.
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