Drove a 2013 Fiat 500 for a week; Love my Yaris even more

[Dark Paw]

Ok kool. Mine's a stick, not very fast in stock trim though I've put a few compatable cars to shame, very fun. I've never driven a 500, can't compare. Hell I fine wanna lol, I'm a Toyota loyalist... Sorta.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

sure. depends on the car. depends on the part. mini was just the example because they were last on the list. there are plenty of parts/repairs on Toyotas and Hondas that I think are absurd. (price wise). I agree that on certain makes, preventative maintenance will take a bigger bite out of ones pocket.

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

[tk-421]

For the record, I've been driving a 2014 Fiat 500 with CVT semi-regularly and it's not half bad. It has a "sport" button that tightens the steering wheel and suspension and shortens the gear ratios. It's also pretty good with gas mileage (comparable to my Yaris).

This is the very first car with CVT that I've ever driven, so I'm not sure if it's unique to this car, but it's pretty much impossible to engine-brake without feeling that I'm wrecking the tranny. Does anyone know if this is common to all CVTs?

[JustPassinThru]

At base, Fiat has always had problems in sturdiness of construction and durability under long-term ownership. All the logo changes, all the "resets," all the image reworkings have left that unchanged - which is what will happen when management invests time and credibility in denying the issue.

Fiat has always been a third-world choice of car. Probably because their manufacturing cost is lower, for whatever reason; and also because they're quick to work with local manufacturing setups and to license government-run manufacturing plants with obsolete and even current products. The Yugo was a restyled 127; the Russian Lada a 124...Fiat sold the Soviet auto commissars the tooling after the 124 was discontinued.

It's the choice of car for benighted people who HAVE little choice of car. In the United States, plenty of dealers went broke trying to sell Fiats to buyers who had VWs, Datsuns, Toyotas to choose among. Fiats came up short then, even when they had front-wheel-drive when Toyota did not; even when they indulged in whimsical styling (Strada) and playful advertising (Strada's manufacturing robots).

At base is quality. Fiat, like Renault, lacked it; and it became so obvious they were forced out of America.

They may have changed but not enough to compete. Sadly, this time they'll probably take what's left of Chrysler down with them.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

[jcboy]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

makes sense, thanks roxy for the insight. yes the mantra is there, but on the other side the industry survey numbers you presented may not also be the reality.

TBH, i used to be a toyota fan, owned a van for more than a decade, then became a honda loyalist, owned a civic for around the same time. then i went back to toyota after test-driving several (brandnew) test cars.
when i testdrove, i have heard a clunking noise from the suspension on a mazda 2, i have felt the flimsiness of switches/stalks of hyundai accent and kia pride, among other things. i have several friends who owned several other cars, which i help them maintain. the suspension of mitsubishi and mazda--let's not even go there.

reliability? i would say toyota is still best (and cheapest), honda is 2nd (rubber bushings are their achilles heel), nissan/mitsubishi/mazda would be something not in my answers to put it simply.

again, you have a point. unfortunately i am unsure as to whether they're closing in as fast as the industry survey numbers say.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

You are arguing the only thing that matters is one study. That is just absurd and ridiculous in every possible way. And 3 years? Give me a break. Totally amazingly worthless since the average age of the American car fleet is the oldest it has ever been at something like 11 years.

No one but you has said there are not other good cars out there. You are arguing against yourself or refusing to read in most of your posts. There are other good cars and brands out there.

But most of them cost more to do anything to. Maybe you've had a very narrow experience when it comes to cars, but I have not. My family has owned literally a fleet of different used cars, so I actually know what most brands cost to fix. Saab, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Infiniti, Plymouth, Chrysler, Lincoln, Cadillac, Jaguar, Mazda and I am sure I am forgetting something.

My Yaris is by far the cheapest vehicle to maintain. Your 1 study does not compare to the many many resources on the internet that show actual cost of ownership and reliability of vehicles over their entire life. It is time to stop clinging to that study like it is the only thing keeping you alive.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

to the many many resources on the internet that show actual cost of ownership and reliability of vehicles over their entire life. It is time to stop clinging to that study like it is the only thing keeping you alive.

you wrote "No one but you has said there are not other good cars out there"

what are you talking about? I have said nothing of the sort. the whole argument is that there are lots of good cars out there.

I understand it is just one study. it just happens to be one of the larger and better one, methodology wise. ive owned plenty of other makes in my lifetime.

nowhere have I said one study is all that matters, only that it is a part of the evidence that Toyota/Honda do not dominate anymore in making dependable cars. they used to because most everybody else was making crap cars in the 80's and 90's.

cost of ownership lists abound all over the place. for example, Forbes uses KBB to compile data, and the lowest ownership costs in each category include the compact Toyota Corolla, midsize Honda Accord and full-size Chevrolet Impala sedans and the Jeep Patriot, Mitsubishi Outlander and Ford Explorer crossovers. Among sports cars, KBB picked the Ford Mustang, while the most frugal-to-own luxury car is the two-door Audi A5.

the list is just one example of many. all kinds of makes are represented. im not married to any one list or study. there is enough data out there for me to see the truth. so, I will say it again: there are many very good, dependable, cheap to own cars being made by quite a few manufacturers out there, giving us all many choices we did not have in the previous two decades.

PLEASE do not get confused. I agree the cost of ownership of plenty of Toyotas is very good. im simply stating the the differences between them and the others isn't anywhere near what it used to be and allows for people to choose other makes based on (for example) the styling they prefer, or the features they prefer, and so on...

jeez, 8 of the 22 categories are taken up by a GM product. that's pretty good. I could live in 1992 and just discount the list, or I could (and have) admitted that GM, Ford, and others are making superior products compared to what they used to. Toyota and Honda are still making very good products. anyone who doesn't think the gap is getting pretty narrow has their eyes closed, IMHO.


KBB cost of ownership lists (by category):

•SUBCOMPACT CAR: Chevrolet Spark
•COMPACT SUV/CROSSOVER: Jeep Patriot
•COMPACT CAR: Toyota Corolla
•MID-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Mitsubishi Outlander
•SPORTY COMPACT CAR: Hyundai Veloster Turbo
•FULL-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Ford Explorer
•MID-SIZE CAR: Honda Accord
•LUXURY COMPACT SUV/CROSSOVER: Buick Encore
•FULL-SIZE CAR: Chevrolet Impala
•LUXURY MID-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Lincoln MKX
•ENTRY-LEVEL LUXURY CAR: Buick Verano
•LUXURY FULL-SIZE SUV/CROSSOVER: Buick Enclave
•LUXURY CAR: Audi A5
•MID-SIZE PICKUP TRUCK: Toyota Tacoma Regular Cab
•HIGH-END LUXURY CAR: Lexus LS
•FULL-SIZE PICKUP TRUCK: GMC Sierra 1500 Regular Cab
•SPORTS CAR: Ford Mustang
•MINIVAN/VAN: Dodge Grand Caravan Passenger
•HIGH-PERFORMANCE CAR: Chevrolet Camaro SS/ZL1
•HYBRID SUV/CROSSOVER: Lexus RX
•HYBRID/ALTERNATIVE ENERGY CAR: Toyota Prius c
•PLUG-IN VEHICLE: Chevrolet Spark EV

[ilikerice]

Look what you started CTScott

My wife says my yaris is a money pit... Most expensive and bouncy vehicle she has ever seen... Every time there is another yaris hatch that we pass, she always says, "that yaris looks better than yours, probably rides better too"

granted... it doesn't matter what car I own.. I will find something to do to it that costs more than its worth.

[ilikerice]

WHOA.. I agree with most of that, EXCEPT
- SPORTY COMPACT CAR: Hyundai Veloster Turbo
I would think the mazdaspeed3 would beat that any day

personal opinion..

[CTScott]

Originally Posted by ilikerice

Look what you started CTScott

My wife says my yaris is a money pit... Most expensive and bouncy vehicle she has ever seen... Every time there is another yaris hatch that we pass, she always says, "that yaris looks better than yours, probably rides better too"

granted... it doesn't matter what car I own.. I will find something to do to it that costs more than its worth.

It is pretty amusing to see how any topic involving one's opinion can turn into a multi-page debate.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by ilikerice

WHOA.. I agree with most of that, EXCEPT
- SPORTY COMPACT CAR: Hyundai Veloster Turbo
I would think the mazdaspeed3 would beat that any day

personal opinion..

I had the standard veloster for a while, so I cant comment on the veloster turbo. however, the interior of that car was far better than it should have been for the price.

don't forget, that list is a cost of ownership list, not necessarily "best" car of most fun car. (I added a heading, which I guess I forgot)

[ilikerice]

don't forget, that list is a cost of ownership list, not necessarily "best" car of most fun car.

Ok, that I can agree on. Mazdaspeed3 is amazing for autocross. I hear alot of complaints about chassis not working very well for autocross. Granted, the Velocter is probably cheaper, being the mazdaspeed3 owners are probably grinding thru each and every gear....

Similar to the Dodge neon SRT-4 when it came out. It was the most bang for your buck off the showroom floor.

[Dark Paw]

Nothing beats a Toyota in durability or long term reliability. All manufacturers are catching up in reliability of their new cars, but in the real world where cars age & get rattly, Toyota trumps all. The cars are just well built to begin with.

[roxy1]

I see more and more 10-15+ yr old, 150,000+ mile domestic makes on the road that look decent and are in good running condition. chevy and ford aren't putting cavaliers and escorts on the road anymore.

times are changing. that is a good thing for all of us.

[bentjazz]

All I know is that I've had my Yaris going on 4 years now and zero problems. Zero.....