Synthetic VS. Regular oil reliability - Page 2 - Toyota Yaris Forums

Yaris Hilton · 01-01-2010, 07:37 PM

The reduced level of ZDP antiwear additive in modern oils is mainly an issue for pushrod engines with flat tappet cams using more aggressive cam profiles than most stock engines. Those engines should run race oils or diesel oils. Under the API rating system, if the manufacturer first rates the oil with a diesel specification and then rates it for spark ignition engines, the reduced phosphorus level doesn't apply. Just a quirk of the rules. Before the reduction in ZDP, most oils contained it at a level of about 800 PPM phosphorus content since it came out in the early 1950s, they went up briefly to 1000 in the late '70s-early '80s when it was found that the finger type cam followers on Ford 4 cylinder engines were wearing too fast, but went back to 800 when they found that the Ford follower problem wasn't due to insufficient ZDP. The ILSAC GF-4 & API SM oils now are required to have less than 800 and more than 600, and usually run right in the middle of that range, so it hasn't been reduced that much. New engines have a lot less reciprocating mass in the valvetrains, have lighter valve spring tension, and often have roller lifters. They don't have problems with current levels of ZDP and it's not expected to be reduced with the upcoming GF-5 specification. Mainly the owners of classic musclecars and hotrodded American V8s need to worry about this issue.

Catalysts being expensive, and with emissions tests becoming ever more widespread, it's worth taking care of them.

N9QGS · 01-05-2010, 12:20 AM

I switched to Mobil1 synthetic at 36K, and I am 122K changing it every 5K and I have excellent oil analysis, I pay 22$ for 5 qts plus use toyota filter. I will change to conventional only if I seem to start loosing any oil, but so far its been a great car.

severous01 · 01-01-2010, 09:52 PM

i usually add 25% to my synthetic oils...however, with the lower costs of the 5q buckets at walmart and the fact that this thing only takes like 3.5q of oil, every 2 oil changes i have an extra oil change for even cheaper.

surprisingly, my fuel economy keeps going up. now i changed my oil at the first interval. i immediately switched to syn on first change. i guess the engine wasnt broken in and it's slowly breaking in with the synthetic oils. any way, i'm happy seening as how my oil isnt even ready to be changed when i drain it. it's still a dark amber color, not anywhere near black or dark brown like i see most of the time working at a dealership.

Yaris Hilton · 01-01-2010, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by severous01

it's still a dark amber color, not anywhere near black or dark brown like i see most of the time working at a dealership.

That's the way the original dino stuff looked coming out of mine at 5K, and the Castrol GTX in it now is pale yellow on the dipstick at about 3K. Color doesn't tell you much, but the 1NZ-FE doesn't soot up its oil badly.

severous01 · 01-03-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

That's the way the original dino stuff looked coming out of mine at 5K, and the Castrol GTX in it now is pale yellow on the dipstick at about 3K. Color doesn't tell you much, but the 1NZ-FE doesn't soot up its oil badly.

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

b_hickman11 · 01-03-2010, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by severous01

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

Because he would only be out around $10 than $40-$85 with syn.

SilverGlow · 01-04-2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by severous01

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

You can always tell those that know nothing about motor oil. They often will use the color and clarity of the oil as an indictor of how dirty or how much usage is still there.

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

RUFFSTUFF · 01-04-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGlow

You can always tell those that know nothing about motor oil. They often will use the color and clarity of the oil as an indictor of how dirty or how much usage is still there.

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

True, but it doesn't hurt to say man my oil is black and let it keep draining to put in new oil. Maybe that's why there's an oil drain plug and not an oil throttle valve... Let it all out!

Sidicas · 01-04-2010, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGlow

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

WHAT? You mean I don't have to change my Royal Purple every day??

TheSilkySmooth · 01-06-2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGlow

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

Agreed. Silver - did you ever contact Toyota Customer care and find out why they didnt put our engine on the 0w-20 approved list? I agree it doesnt ake sense. Ive been reading that the Toyota 0w-20 for the 2AZ is supposed to be very, very good - in fact state of the art. I dont know if I like moly in a oil or not - but this stuff has .1%

RUFFSTUFF · 01-02-2010, 09:59 AM

If you can get a good deal on Synth, then go for it... I do. The way I see it, there's more harm in using the absolute cheapest oil available and saving a few dollars then there is paying more money for synthetic when its overkill.

Yaris Hilton · 01-02-2010, 01:54 PM

There's no harm in "overkill," but neither is there in using bargain priced oil that meets the manufacturer's specs.

RUFFSTUFF · 01-02-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

There's no harm in "overkill," but neither is there in using bargain priced oil that meets the manufacturer's specs.

That's just it... "meeting the spec" and being quality are 2 different things. Would you pick a doctor to perform surgery on you that met the spec, or would you prefer an established specialist?

Yaris Hilton · 01-02-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUFFSTUFF

That's just it... "meeting the spec" and being quality are 2 different things. Would you pick a doctor to perform surgery on you that met the spec, or would you prefer an established specialist?

Not a reasonable comparison. As has already been pointed out, both oils are certified to the same specification. And the specification has already been shown to be good enough. Good enough is good enough.

RUFFSTUFF · 01-02-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

Not a reasonable comparison. As has already been pointed out, both oils are certified to the same specification. And the specification has already been shown to be good enough. Good enough is good enough.

I'm glad you think good enough is good enough, but its not. Seeing how there is more that one oil spec/standard (look on any container for 'hopefully' the multiple standards), the manufacturer may choose to use 1, 2, 3 or more of the ratings in its recommendation. Much like the manufacturer of the tires on the car or the manufacturer (real) of the radio, I'm sure there is a vested interest in the process. BTW, what oil do you use? Just curious if you follow what you type.

UTVitz · 01-02-2010, 07:29 PM

I was a fence sitter on this subject at one time-one year ago. I'd read everyone's comments as well as web sites that talked about synthetic vs. conventional and I still wasn't sure. Till I watched the video Mobile One put up on a test they conducted on taxi cabs in Las Vegas. When I saw how clean the inside of the synthetic engine was vs. the conventional oil engine I was sold. At first I tried Mobile One, but ultimately switched to Redline since I found a local vender and knew this brand from my motorcycle days. I also switched a '92 Miata with 160k miles on it and it's clickety lifters have never been quieter and it had been on conventional it's whole life with no engine failures other than lots of oil leaks that have all been chased down and fixed.

Conventionals are really great oils in todays market. Switching to synthetic is really a personal and economic decision that's different for everyone. If I didn't do my own oil changes there is no way I'd pay the dealer mark up on synthetic, but since I save doing it myself I can go syn. for what conventional would cost paying the dealer to do it.

Some fence sitter things I wondered about was fuel mileage-would it be any better? Nope, I'm still where I was on conventional. Engine quiter-not that I can tell, seems the same as when new. Would the engine start leaking oil? Fortunately, no, it has not. Finally, how would I feel about it-well, total piece of mind that I've put the best in my car, no matter what brand of car I want to take care of it.

RUFFSTUFF · 01-02-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UTVitz

I was a fence sitter on this subject at one time-one year ago. I'd read everyone's comments as well as web sites that talked about synthetic vs. conventional and I still wasn't sure. Till I watched the video Mobile One put up on a test they conducted on taxi cabs in Las Vegas. When I saw how clean the inside of the synthetic engine was vs. the conventional oil engine I was sold. At first I tried Mobile One, but ultimately switched to Redline since I found a local vender and knew this brand from my motorcycle days. I also switched a '92 Miata with 160k miles on it and it's clickety lifters have never been quieter and it had been on conventional it's whole life with no engine failures other than lots of oil leaks that have all been chased down and fixed.

Conventionals are really great oils in todays market. Switching to synthetic is really a personal and economic decision that's different for everyone. If I didn't do my own oil changes there is no way I'd pay the dealer mark up on synthetic, but since I save doing it myself I can go syn. for what conventional would cost paying the dealer to do it.

Some fence sitter things I wondered about was fuel mileage-would it be any better? Nope, I'm still where I was on conventional. Engine quiter-not that I can tell, seems the same as when new. Would the engine start leaking oil? Fortunately, no, it has not. Finally, how would I feel about it-well, total piece of mind that I've put the best in my car, no matter what brand of car I want to take care of it.

+1

Lewis · 01-03-2010, 10:31 AM

It amazes me how emotional folks seem to get about their choice of motor oils?

I guess it shows that the marketeers are doing a good job in convincing people it's a very consequential decision.

As a 62 year old who remembers cars from the 5-60's we are SO far ahead of where we were I think virtually any decision is great compared to the time when getting 100k out of an engine was considered very good!

01-05-2010, 12:20 AM	#2
N9QGS View User's Garage Drives: 2007 Toyota Yaris Sedan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Georgetown, KY Posts: 117	I switched to Mobil1 synthetic at 36K, and I am 122K changing it every 5K and I have excellent oil analysis, I pay 22$ for 5 qts plus use toyota filter. I will change to conventional only if I seem to start loosing any oil, but so far its been a great car. __________________ 198K Miles

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01-01-2010, 07:37 PM	#1
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	The reduced level of ZDP antiwear additive in modern oils is mainly an issue for pushrod engines with flat tappet cams using more aggressive cam profiles than most stock engines. Those engines should run race oils or diesel oils. Under the API rating system, if the manufacturer first rates the oil with a diesel specification and then rates it for spark ignition engines, the reduced phosphorus level doesn't apply. Just a quirk of the rules. Before the reduction in ZDP, most oils contained it at a level of about 800 PPM phosphorus content since it came out in the early 1950s, they went up briefly to 1000 in the late '70s-early '80s when it was found that the finger type cam followers on Ford 4 cylinder engines were wearing too fast, but went back to 800 when they found that the Ford follower problem wasn't due to insufficient ZDP. The ILSAC GF-4 & API SM oils now are required to have less than 800 and more than 600, and usually run right in the middle of that range, so it hasn't been reduced that much. New engines have a lot less reciprocating mass in the valvetrains, have lighter valve spring tension, and often have roller lifters. They don't have problems with current levels of ZDP and it's not expected to be reduced with the upcoming GF-5 specification. Mainly the owners of classic musclecars and hotrodded American V8s need to worry about this issue. Catalysts being expensive, and with emissions tests becoming ever more widespread, it's worth taking care of them.

01-01-2010, 09:52 PM	#3
severous01 Drives: 2008 yaris, stripped, red Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: SE Texas Posts: 977	i usually add 25% to my synthetic oils...however, with the lower costs of the 5q buckets at walmart and the fact that this thing only takes like 3.5q of oil, every 2 oil changes i have an extra oil change for even cheaper. surprisingly, my fuel economy keeps going up. now i changed my oil at the first interval. i immediately switched to syn on first change. i guess the engine wasnt broken in and it's slowly breaking in with the synthetic oils. any way, i'm happy seening as how my oil isnt even ready to be changed when i drain it. it's still a dark amber color, not anywhere near black or dark brown like i see most of the time working at a dealership.

01-02-2010, 09:59 AM	#11
RUFFSTUFF Banned Drives: 2009 TOYOTA YARIS SEDAN Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: KINGSLAND, GA Posts: 381	If you can get a good deal on Synth, then go for it... I do. The way I see it, there's more harm in using the absolute cheapest oil available and saving a few dollars then there is paying more money for synthetic when its overkill.

01-02-2010, 01:54 PM	#12
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	There's no harm in "overkill," but neither is there in using bargain priced oil that meets the manufacturer's specs.

01-02-2010, 07:29 PM	#16
UTVitz Drives: Black Vitz Liftback Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 238	I was a fence sitter on this subject at one time-one year ago. I'd read everyone's comments as well as web sites that talked about synthetic vs. conventional and I still wasn't sure. Till I watched the video Mobile One put up on a test they conducted on taxi cabs in Las Vegas. When I saw how clean the inside of the synthetic engine was vs. the conventional oil engine I was sold. At first I tried Mobile One, but ultimately switched to Redline since I found a local vender and knew this brand from my motorcycle days. I also switched a '92 Miata with 160k miles on it and it's clickety lifters have never been quieter and it had been on conventional it's whole life with no engine failures other than lots of oil leaks that have all been chased down and fixed. Conventionals are really great oils in todays market. Switching to synthetic is really a personal and economic decision that's different for everyone. If I didn't do my own oil changes there is no way I'd pay the dealer mark up on synthetic, but since I save doing it myself I can go syn. for what conventional would cost paying the dealer to do it. Some fence sitter things I wondered about was fuel mileage-would it be any better? Nope, I'm still where I was on conventional. Engine quiter-not that I can tell, seems the same as when new. Would the engine start leaking oil? Fortunately, no, it has not. Finally, how would I feel about it-well, total piece of mind that I've put the best in my car, no matter what brand of car I want to take care of it.

01-03-2010, 10:31 AM	#18
Lewis Our off road vehicle Drives: 2009 Yaris 3dr Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 198	It amazes me how emotional folks seem to get about their choice of motor oils? I guess it shows that the marketeers are doing a good job in convincing people it's a very consequential decision. As a 62 year old who remembers cars from the 5-60's we are SO far ahead of where we were I think virtually any decision is great compared to the time when getting 100k out of an engine was considered very good!