Considering Yaris vs. Elantra

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by kimona

This issue has been flogged to death here and elsewhere. Most drivers will get better gas mileage with the automatic transmission.

flat out false. (odd that the epa highway estimate is worse for the automatic transmission)

if you want to...

-get the best mileage (not really debatable, IMO)
-save money on your purchase price (not in question)
-have a more fun driving experience when the mood hits you (hard to debate this)

...then get the manual transmission.

drivers of the automatic might have come to that conclusion in their own heads. a vast majority of the highest mileage yaris drivers are the manual drivers. auto transmission drivers can try to rationalize their choice of an auto transmission all they want. just admit you got the auto tranny for the convenience. the epa estimates and real life data bears out better mileage in the manual transmission.

i dont know how big of a sample you want:

68 automatic transmission drivers and 44 manual transmission drivers.
not only does the manual transmission yaris fare better in mileage, its not even that close. 38.8 mpg vs 34.8 mpg in favor of the manual transmission.

this forum is made up of a majority of auto transmission drivers (natural since there arent that many 5 speeds being made). it is natural they will want to believe the auto tranny can achieve equal mileage with the manual transmission. the facts wont show this to be so. the lower rpm argument doesnt cut it with this car as the rpm differences are minimal. the small rpm advantage cannot make up for the parasitic losses inherent in driving an auto (yes, even todays automatics). there is also a weight advantage, though it is not great.

now, taking the civic or fit as an example where the rpm differences between the auto are extremely different (something around 800+ rpm's at highway speeds) and you could see where that would make a difference.

the only argument to be had is someone who cant drive a manual transmision and doesnt understand efficient shift points might as well drive the auto.

i dont fault anyone for getting the auto transmission. it is more convenient (there are occasions where i widh i had one, such as traffic tie ups) and it still gets very good mileage, but not quite what the manual transmission will achieve.

[auxmike]

I bought the A/T because I could no way no how find a 5speed with a power pkg last March. All they had was ONE red "bare bones" model in stock. And I did check three dealers that day.
I was in DESPERATE need of a car and could not wait for the dealer to search around.
In the long run I'm glad I got what I did.....

[voodoo22]

Originally Posted by roxy1

flat out false. (odd that the epa highway estimate is worse for the automatic transmission)

I know it doesn't make sense, but it is a fact that if you are driving long distances at a consistent speed where shifting isn't required and not p&g'ing, you will get better FE with the auto. The higher rpms do make enough of a difference on the MT so that it cannot touch the AT.

If you're doing any kind of driving where shifting is involved the MT can do better than the AT if driven properly, but it is indisputable fact that the FIT and Yaris AT are better than the MT at consistent hwy speeds. I'm not trying to justify my purchase, I would be saying the same if I owned a MT like all my previous cars. You cannot change facts to suit what should make sense.

Don't take my word for it, go to sites like cleanmpg and read up on this from other people interested in FE more than most.

[businezguy]

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example, very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice. besides, when you get up around 35-40+ mpg's, the saving in a few mpg's gets to be rather small, and the higher you get, the more insignificant the savings from a few mpg's becomes. diminishing returns.

[Yaris Hilton]

How many angels can dance on a shift knob?

[businezguy]

Thanks for the information, Roxy. There are times when I get stuck in a jam and really do have to slow and and speed up for as much as 10 miles of my 62 mile commute to work (this rarely happens on the way home).

I still have a feeling that the manual transmission will be the better choice for me. Thanks for all of the information you've provided, it's been a lot of help.

[voodoo22]

Originally Posted by businezguy

Thanks for the information, Roxy. There are times when I get stuck in a jam and really do have to slow and and speed up for as much as 10 miles of my 62 mile commute to work (this rarely happens on the way home).

I still have a feeling that the manual transmission will be the better choice for me. Thanks for all of the information you've provided, it's been a lot of help.

If you can live with the MT, it's definitely the better choice based on initial cost alone. In Canada AT is a 1000$ option. Just don't be deterred from getting the AT based on FE fears for the kind of driving you do. The most important thing is to get what you want. It's much easier to deal with a choice you made versus one made for you, imo.