Considering Yaris vs. Elantra

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

I actually have. I've been looking at some Yaris's that are 2007 models but have only 25k or so on them, and are selling for $8k..

that would be a very good deal with that little mileage.

[businezguy]

Well I have been of many minds about my purchase, and I'm sure part of it is the fact that I'm able to pay cash and own my car outright, so I'm really focusing on making the right decision on my purchase. That and I'm enjoying the purchase process.

Between considering the Elantra and toying with purchasing a Ford Focus (don't worry, it aint gonna happen), it's very likely I'll be buying my new Yaris on either Friday or Saturday. I'm so excited, and greatly anticipating this potential purchase!

[businezguy]

Okay so here's my question. For those of you who went with a manual Yaris, have you had any regrets? I'm seriously considering the manual for the fun factor, to save money on the purchase price, and to save fuel economy.

How is the manual transmission on the Yaris, is it nice and smooth? Does anybody ever get tired of driving one?

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by voodoo22

For your mostly highway driving, you will in fact get worse fuel economy with a MT unless you do pulse and glide, which involves putting the car in neutral, shutting off the engine and coasting down to a certain speed before you start up the engine again.
.

you will get better mileage with the manual transmission overall, and based on every shred of information i collected when shopping you will still get better mpg's on the highway (the difference in rpm's is little and the auto transmission will still have more parasitic losses than the manual transmission).

ill just repost what i wrote before:
back in 07 when i was shopping for my yaris, i made a crude spreadsheet from every forum i could find discussing real world mileage from yaris owners. i tried to compare apples to apples as far as driving conditions with the manual vs the auto. the vast majority (88%) of the highest mileage (identified as non hypermilers based on their posts) drivers were driving manual transmissions.

here is another site comparing a pretty good sampling of drivers of the 2007 yaris (which is identical as far as engine/transmission to the 09 yaris). you will see the manual transmission has an average of 38.8 mpg vs the auto transmission at 34.8 mpg.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calcu...ta&model=Yaris

additionally, id have to say if you can get a corolla for the same price as a yaris, it would be a no brainer to go with the corolla. but, it you really want a hatchback, then the yaris is a no brainer, unless a base model fit appeals to you (which would already be equiped with power windows/locks.

if you really want to up the fun factor, try to talk your wife into a hatchback yaris. there is nothing fun looking or unique about the sedan. i rented the yaris sedan before i bought my hatchback and i had a lady at the bank ask me "is that a new Tercel?"

[kimona]

This issue has been flogged to death here and elsewhere. Most drivers will get better gas mileage with the automatic transmission.

[businezguy]

I'm surprised that the manual transmission doesn't rev at lower RPMs because it is a 5-speed. I would be going around 55 to 60 MPH so I would think the 5-speed would run at lower RPMs for me.

Thanks for the clarification! I do not plan on "pulsing and gliding". I would certainly be very conservative with shifting, and intentionally leave the car at very low RPMs however.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by kimona

This issue has been flogged to death here and elsewhere. Most drivers will get better gas mileage with the automatic transmission.

flat out false. (odd that the epa highway estimate is worse for the automatic transmission)

if you want to...

-get the best mileage (not really debatable, IMO)
-save money on your purchase price (not in question)
-have a more fun driving experience when the mood hits you (hard to debate this)

...then get the manual transmission.

drivers of the automatic might have come to that conclusion in their own heads. a vast majority of the highest mileage yaris drivers are the manual drivers. auto transmission drivers can try to rationalize their choice of an auto transmission all they want. just admit you got the auto tranny for the convenience. the epa estimates and real life data bears out better mileage in the manual transmission.

i dont know how big of a sample you want:

68 automatic transmission drivers and 44 manual transmission drivers.
not only does the manual transmission yaris fare better in mileage, its not even that close. 38.8 mpg vs 34.8 mpg in favor of the manual transmission.

this forum is made up of a majority of auto transmission drivers (natural since there arent that many 5 speeds being made). it is natural they will want to believe the auto tranny can achieve equal mileage with the manual transmission. the facts wont show this to be so. the lower rpm argument doesnt cut it with this car as the rpm differences are minimal. the small rpm advantage cannot make up for the parasitic losses inherent in driving an auto (yes, even todays automatics). there is also a weight advantage, though it is not great.

now, taking the civic or fit as an example where the rpm differences between the auto are extremely different (something around 800+ rpm's at highway speeds) and you could see where that would make a difference.

the only argument to be had is someone who cant drive a manual transmision and doesnt understand efficient shift points might as well drive the auto.

i dont fault anyone for getting the auto transmission. it is more convenient (there are occasions where i widh i had one, such as traffic tie ups) and it still gets very good mileage, but not quite what the manual transmission will achieve.

[auxmike]

I bought the A/T because I could no way no how find a 5speed with a power pkg last March. All they had was ONE red "bare bones" model in stock. And I did check three dealers that day.
I was in DESPERATE need of a car and could not wait for the dealer to search around.
In the long run I'm glad I got what I did.....

[businezguy]

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example, very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by businezguy

This is an interesting debate, and it seems that if I was doing a lot of local/city driving the manual transmission would be superior for me. If I'm going to be doing a lot of highway driving the automatic will actually have the advantage, and will actually run at lower RPMs then does the manual (which is still surprising to me since the manual has 5 gears).

Do I have that information correct?

the reason the honda fit automatic does better than the manaul transmission fit on the highway is because their is a huge discrepancy in rpm's at highway speed. the fit manual is geared ridicuously high such that it cant make up the drivetrain advantages vs the automatic fit.


in the case of the yaris, the auto will come close to the manual on the highway. the rpm difference on the highway is only about 200 rpm's. i collected data from cleanmpg, toyotanation, edmunds car space forums, fueleconomy.gov, and this forum before i bought my yaris. 88% of the highest mileage yaris were manual transmissions, and many of these were long distance commuters. the auto was commonly 1-2 mpg's behind. clean mpg is slanted toward hypermiling, but most drivers arent utilyzing many of those techniques. of course, someone who hypermiles a yaris automatic on a long highway jaunt should easily beat the mileage of the average person driving either a manual or auto yaris. on a raw numbers basis, a large majority of the hypermilers i found with the best highway mileages across all the forums were driving manual transmissions.

i even broke 46 mpg with my manual yaris 4 times using few hypermiling techniques, but primarily by driving sensibly, and of course those were mostly highway tanks.

in 2008, the EPA decided to revise its testing methods. Tests will continue to use a dynamometer. Changes will include:
Higher speeds - up to 80 MPH on the highway cycle
Colder temperatures - tests will now start at 20 degrees Fahrenheit rather than 75
More rapid acceleration
Use of accessories - the air conditioner will be operated 13% of the time

this is what happens on the highway in real life. many drivers are going to have to speed up and slow down during their highway driving. very few people get a 50 mile run at one speed. out of 112 drivers on fueleconomy.gov, for example very, very few have 90% or more of their overall driving consisting of highway mileage. the current testing methods resulted in the yaris being rated with a higher mpg on the highway. anecdotal evidence is nice for a forum debate, but in my view the raw numbers favor the manual transmission yaris in real world highway driving.

having said all of that, i dont think the difference is big enough (if all you do are highway commutes that are non stop) to justify buying a manual if you view the auto transmision as the more convenient choice. besides, when you get up around 35-40+ mpg's, the saving in a few mpg's gets to be rather small, and the higher you get, the more insignificant the savings from a few mpg's becomes. diminishing returns.

[Yaris Hilton]

How many angels can dance on a shift knob?

[businezguy]

Thanks for the information, Roxy. There are times when I get stuck in a jam and really do have to slow and and speed up for as much as 10 miles of my 62 mile commute to work (this rarely happens on the way home).

I still have a feeling that the manual transmission will be the better choice for me. Thanks for all of the information you've provided, it's been a lot of help.

[kimona]

Originally Posted by voodoo22

If you can live with the MT, it's definitely the better choice based on initial cost alone. In Canada AT is a 1000$ option. Just don't be deterred from getting the AT based on FE fears for the kind of driving you do. The most important thing is to get what you want. It's much easier to deal with a choice you made versus one made for you, imo.

I like this advice.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by voodoo22

Just don't be deterred from getting the AT based on FE fears for the kind of driving you do. The most important thing is to get what you want. It's much easier to deal with a choice you made versus one made for you, imo.

i completely agree with this.

[Shroomster]

in all honesty you should be comparing the yaris to the accent or even the kia spectra5 or rio5, not the elantra.

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by businezguy

I'm wondering what I can expect by setting the cruise control to 55 MPH and leaving it at that. I really hope I can get well over 45 MPG by doing that.

I think it depends on a lot of factors, one of which seems to be the state...

I drive a long, flat, rural road a few times per week, out and back, about 200 miles R/T, w/ the cruise control set at 55 MPH. I find that I can hit 45 MPG but it's not the norm, any small factor against you will make the mileage drop to about 42. This is in CA which tends to require more additives to the fuel which hurt mileage. A few months ago I went on vacation out of state, had lots of stuff in the car, an additional person, and wasn't driving like granny (doing 75/80) and managed 45 for a few tanks...

EDIT: Oh, and as for the Elantra... I had an '03 Elantra GT hatch that I purchased new. It was totaled w/ 20k miles on it, but I absolutely LOVED it... they've done a major redesign since then so you can't compare them, but it was my favorite car I've ever owned, and I've owned far too many! That said, I really enjoy the Yaris and the only reason that it's not as good as the Elantra is the lack of moonroof, leather seats, tweeters, etc which all came standard in the Elantra for less money {back then}.

[Kal-El]

Some of my points after reading through the thread...

- As many have pointed out, the Elantra competes with the Corolla, not Yaris regardless of price. Although for shopping purposes based on price, the argument can be made for a cross-shop. Point is, the Elantra, as is traditional with Hyundai, is a very good value and cheaper than direct competitors. Just like the Accent can be typically had for less than the Yaris.

- businezguy, since you want the power package, it does bring down the "value" factor of the Yaris and puts it at a price point that makes it overlap with fancier cars such as the Elantra. The Yaris is the best value in base form (or convenience package only) for around $13-$14K. That said, I wouldn't call a $16K Yaris overpriced, but an $18K one is (power pack, S-pack w/ alloys, ect..)

- As for the debate about which gets better highway mileage, MT or auto, well it's pretty close either way and is negligible. Fact is, the EPA tested both and rates the MT at 36 and the auto at 35 mpg. Maybe the auto revs slightly lower, but the MT makes the car lighter and less complex.

- businezguy, do you run into a lot of stop and go during your long commutes? If so, opt for the auto. It may save your sanity.

- Also, I know you want the sedan, but the liftback has more storage compartments for all the needs you listed. And there's now 4-doors available if that's your need. That said, I prefer the sedan too.

Good luck with your purchase!