Serious Autocrossers?

[ozmdd]

Originally Posted by Yaris-x

TRD Rear sway bar Production code HR

2009 SCCA SOLO Rules
12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been
ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and
delivered through a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options
provided by the factory are considered to be the same as
those installed on the factory production line. Dealer-installed options
or deletions (except as required by factory directives), no matter
how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition.
This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.

You just made my point. There is no factory-provided part here. Again, read the quote in blue in the above post. There is no such thing as a factory-installed rear sway bar on a US Yaris. The rule you quote clearly states that a factory-available part can ALSO be installed at the port instead of the actual factory and still be considered "standard."

[Jason@SportsCar]

Originally Posted by ozmdd

You just made my point. There is no factory-provided part here. Again, read the quote in blue in the above post. There is no such thing as a factory-installed rear sway bar on a US Yaris. The rule you quote clearly states that a factory-available part can ALSO be installed at the port instead of the actual factory and still be considered "standard."

While you may have good intentions you are incorrect with your interpretation of the rule. 12.4 specifically allows Port Installed options, and treats them exactly the same as assembly line parts. This is regardless of if the part was ever available on the factory assembly line, or if one was ever built at the factory.

There are a number of examples of 12.4 in active competition on the national level, and a great example of this allowance in Appendix F. Aside from the Subi clarification, there is the Shelby Mustang and Camaro SS, both built off site and stock legal. Many of the top Toyota MR2s in ES are hand built cars. The top guys have taken advantage of documentation that shows a hardtop, non-power steering ABS equipped MR2 option. There is zero evidence of one ever being built by the factory, or port, but because it was an option people have built them. The Mazda MX-5 MS-R is Port only built car, never done on the assembly line.

I as an tell you as a past member of the Solo Events Board, and having sat on number protest committees, that the Port is considered the same as the factory for SCCA Solo purposes. However, dealer installed items, even those that could be ordered from the manufacturer are not legal. Toyota, Scion and others have made it difficult for some people to figure out which ones are which, but if you do your homework you will not have an issue.

12 Automotive Definitions:
12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been
ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and
delivered through a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options
provided by the factory are considered to be the same as
those installed on the factory production line. Dealer-installed options
or deletions (except as required by factory directives), no matter
how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition.
This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.

Appendix F:
SUBARU WRX OPTIONS
The following items are port-installed options on the Subaru WRX,
are listed when installed on the vehicle’s window sticker, and
pending evidence to the contrary are considered legal: carbon fiber
trim, turbo boost gauge, titanium shift knob, short throw shifter, rear
diff protector, spoilers, arm rest extension.

[mikenacarato]

theres only 2 other cars in fsp. 1 miata and 1 wrx, its always a tossup between us

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by mikenacarato

theres only 2 other cars in fsp. 1 miata and 1 wrx, its always a tossup between us

neither car belongs in FSP

wow, your autocross club smokes a lot of crack lol

[ozmdd]

SCCA National Solo Rules 2009
13.7 ANTI-ROLL (SWAY) BARS
A. For front anti-roll (sway) bars:
1. Substitution, addition or removal of any front anti-roll bars is
permitted.
2. Substitution, addition or removal of anti-roll bars may serve
no other purpose than that of an anti-roll bar.
3. The use of any bushing material is permitted.
4. No modification to the body, frame or other components to
accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed,
except for the drilling of holes for mounting bolts. Nonstandard
lateral members which connect between the brackets
for the bar are not permitted.
B. Rear anti-roll (sway) bars may not be removed, replaced, or
modified in any way.

From Section 13 "Stock"
Alternate parts listed in a factory parts manual are not authorized unless their use is specifically referenced in the factory service
manual or in a service bulletin for the specific model

Please show me the "port option exception" as it only exists in the Solo rules when it pertains to specific vehicles that have been listed in the "Stock Class Clarifications" section in the appendix. There isn't one for the Yaris, but the ones that do exist are items that MUST APPEAR ON THE WINDOW STICKER (not the dealer's add-on sticker.) EX. The WRX allows the port-added CF dash overlay, boost gauge and armrest.

[Yaris-x]

TRD is toyota toyota will install the toyota Rear sway bar at NY PORT and it would appear on the toyota build sheet as (PPO-HR TRD Rear Sway bar)

[ozmdd]

Again, you can't ignore the part of the rule that says that the option must be a factory option. This is not. Since you work at the dealer, show me the factory-option rear sway. And no, TRD is not Toyota. Not to SCCA. They have another section that refers to manufacturer-supported performance division parts. And that section ain't in "Stock."

Lets see your build sheet. Even if the rear sway was factory-available, the burden-of-proof would be on you to show that the part was legal. And you would have to have every other part available in that package, and the same year-model vehicle.
You can't cherry-pick the rule book.
Again, don't you want to win your trophy fair-and-square? Its not worth bragging about if you won it wrongly. Even Andy Hollis gave-up his title last year when he realized his motor wasn't 100% legal, by no fault of his own, and nobody would have ever realized it.
Integrity is what makes the sport fun. As good as you drive, you should still be able to place in ST, or run your events w/o the sway bar and class-illegal wheels.

[ozmdd]

Of course, you could also announce your non-complying mods to the other drivers in your class and ask for an exception. The you're legit. Lotsa people do that. I ran my Miata w/ an automatic radiator (metal) instead of the plastic one that comes in manual trannys and just told my competitors. They didn't care that I had an extra 4 pounds on my car, and I was legit.

I suspect that if you told your competitors about your changes, they might not feel it was fair. Maybe the wheels, but not the sway bar. I guess you could just ask them?

[Yaris-x]

Ok if you go to the dealer and buy a Yaris in "A" category and it still hasn't hit American soil. You can request that your yaris come in with a TRD Rear sway bar. When it hits NY PORT or whatever port your region receives yaris from it will go into a second assembly line state side where they will put on your Sway bar and Floor mats and whatever else toyota wants put on there. The Yaris will come into the dealer with the sway bar listed on the window sticker and if you print off the Vehicle inquiry then or 10 years from now in the Dealer Trac system it will list the Sway bar as an option on that vehicle. As for my wheels yes they are .5" too wide but they were approved by my regions solo chair and I do know if I went to compete in another region or at a higher event they may not pass but I am not running wider tires and I'm not even running slicks so I did so with the blessing of my regions SOLO chair.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by Yaris-x

Ok if you go to the dealer and buy a Yaris in "A" category and it still hasn't hit American soil. You can request that your yaris come in with a TRD Rear sway bar. When it hits NY PORT or whatever port your region receives yaris from it will go into a second assembly line state side where they will put on your Sway bar and Floor mats and whatever else toyota wants put on there. The Yaris will come into the dealer with the sway bar listed on the window sticker and if you print off the Vehicle inquiry then or 10 years from now in the Dealer Trac system it will list the Sway bar as an option on that vehicle. As for my wheels yes they are .5" too wide but they were approved by my regions solo chair and I do know if I went to compete in another region or at a higher event they may not pass but I am not running wider tires and I'm not even running slicks so I did so with the blessing of my regions SOLO chair.

you're still missing the point.

if you order a swaybar with your yaris and it happens to get installed at the port, it is NOT a factory option.

the only port installed options that are legal are parts that can (AND WILL) be installed at the factory. in other words, you order a yaris with ABS, and the factory does not install it for you, but the port does. THAT is legal, because the factory DOES install ABS on a yaris. but the factory does NOT install rear swaybars, so it's not legal in stock class, no matter who installed it.

i wanna fly to NY just so i can contest you now

[ozmdd]

Still not a factory item. Glad you did the right thing on the wheels. Good luck!

[kngrsll]

It would be nice to get a sticky with peoples set ups, how well they do, what events the do, so on. I know the normal set up here: springs, shocks, rear sway bar. I am actually experimenting with a new set up now.

The old mk1 VW Rabbits are the exact same layout as the yaris. Light, FWD hatcback with front strut suspension and rear twist beam. So we have a guy in our region who competes on the national level with his Rabbit, i thought i would ask what his set up is. The reason i wanted to ask was that i know that the VW twist beam guys have two major set ups, the same as our car: springs shocks rear sway bar, and another camp. This consists of big front bar, stiff rear springs (100-200 lbs more than the front), and no rear sway bar. So my idea is experiment and try this set up. So far, i have removed my rear bar, and added 6kg rear springs (350 lbs) to go with my front 3kg springs (175 lbs). the car drives different, but i cant quanitify it is better or not until i do some racing. it certainly feels different though.

the reasoning behind this set up: on the front suspension, you want to combat roll as much as you can to keep the front tires down. so a big front bar does that. in the rear, you want the bar to work as much as it is designed to do, keeping the rear tires down by the natural twist of the beam. but you need to maintain the balance front and rear so you increase the rear spring rates. this helps keep all 4 wheels in better contact with the contact surface. thats how it was explained to me by a VW guy. he also said the downside to a big rear bar is that it masks the problem by decreasing overall grip, while creating oversteer.

so anyways, that was my conversation, so i thought i would give it a try. if it works, cool, another option. if not, i can bolt all my old parts back on! I am going to do this setup without an LSD to start with, then with an LSD to see if that changes the situation.

so my new, final setup would be: custom front sway bar, no rear sway bar, 3kgF/6kgR springs, Tokico HTS's, and a 2 way TRD clutch LSD.

ill let ya guys know how it turns out.

[ozmdd]

Interesting approach. The biggest difference I can see is that our chassis is much stiffer than the old VW's, so factor that in.
I can attest that the rear bar made a gigantic difference in handling and limiting roll, probably cut 2 seconds off my time on a 45 sec course.

I'd love to do the LSD, but it bumps me to an absurd class.
Keep us informed, and I'll update you after my new alignment this week.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by ozmdd

I'd love to do the LSD, but it bumps me to an absurd class.
Keep us informed, and I'll update you after my new alignment this week.

there's absolutely nothing absurd about FSP lol.

[kngrsll]

Originally Posted by ozmdd

Interesting approach. The biggest difference I can see is that our chassis is much stiffer than the old VW's, so factor that in.
I can attest that the rear bar made a gigantic difference in handling and limiting roll, probably cut 2 seconds off my time on a 45 sec course.

I'd love to do the LSD, but it bumps me to an absurd class.
Keep us informed, and I'll update you after my new alignment this week.

yea, well, i think with normal spring ratio's, the rear bar is very helpful.

the LSD should put you in STX if you stay with street tires, right? you will never be competitive there, but if you switch to street prepared and got slicks, you may be able to be competitive, who knows.

i am not a serious autoxer, i do mostly track days, and i will still do the occasional autox. right now, i slot into ST, and should stay in ST until the LSD goes in. i wont buy slicks just to autox, so i dunno what class i would end up choosing when i go next spring.

i prefer track days, and i would like to do some NASA time trials. we have a ton of points to use bc the class we are in, TT-G, doesnt exist anymore, so to compete, you automatically have to be in TT-F, which frees up alot of points for you to use. so an LSD is no hinderance there. if i remember right, i can go to slicks, shed alot of weight, and even supercharge the car before worrying about the next class. id consider taking more weight out of the car if its simple and doesnt hurt the daily driving of the car, and i dont mind getting another set of wheels and slicks, but i probably wont supercharge it. you can also do a swap, but you assume the class of the car that the engine came out of. i think the perfect engine would be the 2.4L camary, 168 hp and its the same class as the yaris so it *may* be no penalty, but i doubt that. it shouldnt put you in TT-E though, so thats good lol.

keep up the conversation, ive been waiting to chat about these ideas for quite some time now.

[ozmdd]

absurd, in that I'll want to do all the allowed mods. The $$ will become absurd for my budget! I can barely afford ST! :)

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by ozmdd

absurd, in that I'll want to do all the allowed mods. The $$ will become absurd for my budget! I can barely afford ST! :)

in many ways, FSP is cheaper than ST..

here's how

aside from the inital cost of buying the following items, you end up spending less overall.

second set of wheels. can be had for VERY cheap because any 15's will do, as long as they're 4X100 and at least 6.5" wide....

race rubber. . i buy my tires used for around $150 a set, and get an entire season if not 1.5 seasons out of them. there's no street tire in the WORLD that will cost you that little and last that long, not to mention the ridiculous grip (at least 2 seconds faster than a street tire)

so, initial setup, let's say $500 for wheels and tires.

then another $150 a year (im positive you can find used race rubber for around that price)

or ST class, a good ST tire is gonna cost you $100 each if not a little more, and you need 4 of them. because you're streeting them too, expect to be buying new tires every 6 months or so.

so, that's $800 a year on tires alone.


skip all the other SP legal mods, they're garbage. save up for some quality struts, lowering springs (if you haven't already) get an alignment, and call it a day.

i rocked FSP with my xA for 5 years and spent about $500 in that entire span on tires.

[ozmdd]

I prefer to run separate tires/wheels anyway, so tire wear isn't me problem. At least around here, the cars running in SP are mostly fully prepared, so not so desirable. We have a large number of regional/national competitors around here.