Which of These Car Companies Will Go Bust First?

[Reddog99]

Gene, you're awfully opinionated for someone who seems to have no experience actually working in a union shop.

You have to remember that union contracts (work rules) are a negotiated agreement with the management, so you can't lay blame on just one side.

You also must remember the abusive conditions under which unions came to "power" (many years before both you or I were born). I have personally worked in both union & non-union shops and have seen the abuses that can happen when there is no union protection. I'd prefer to work a union shop every time.

I do happen to work in a Lean union shop where multi-skilling is promoted. I have also seen the results of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". We have a lot of people (management included) who are "qualified" to perform many tasks, albeit, not very well. You can't beat a journeyman's years of experience.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Reddog99

Gene, you're awfully opinionated for someone who seems to have no experience actually working in a union shop.

I worked for a company under the auspices of the IBEW (I think Local 29 but that was twenty years ago). I was a "scab with papers" to quote the CWA whiners who worked alongside of me. I got to pay dues, two hours of my wage a month, but got no protection whatsoever.

Meanwhile the CWA turds enjoyed long coffee breaks, did not do anything but "their job" and sniveled and whined about politics. Finally they whined about us "scabs with papers". We were laid off by seniority and not performance. Hence the loafers got to stay and we (twenty of us) left.

I never forgot how my "Brothers and Sisters" used me like a Kleenex. I got to pay dues but got nothing else. If Unions stand for working people how come the IBEW didn't stand up for me? Why did they take my money and not give me the protection that my dues should have bought for me?

I survived two Organization campaigns, one by the USW, the other by the Teamsters. In the first case I arrived after the vote, and in the second case I voted against the Union.

Originally Posted by Reddog99

You have to remember that union contracts (work rules) are a negotiated agreement with the management, so you can't lay blame on just one side.

You weren't paying attention to other posts I've made. I've been pitiless towards the Wharton/Harvard clique which runs GM (and probably Ford).

That being said, Unions can and do insist upon certain things, especially work rules. I rather doubt that they'd elect to support Lean, and since that time Lean has NOT been implemented at GM nor at Ford.

I wish that they'd do it, and I wish that they'd build a car like the Yaris in North America. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Originally Posted by Reddog99

You also must remember the abusive conditions under which unions came to "power" (many years before both you or I were born).

I live less than thirty miles from the site of the Homestead Strike. My grandfather was a member of Ironworkers local 3. He was a militant lunch bucket Democrat until the day he died. He also hated the PA State Police, calling them "Coal and Iron Police". The C&I gang were pricks with badges. I have more than a little sympathy for Unions, especially in the "bad old days".

I read about how Carnegie rolled, and why he had to import workers from Europe. The early Mills were awful places to work, as were the old mines. I heard stories about the "Company Store" too.

I also know how the Teamsters got in bed with the Chicago mobs. I know how Teamsters and UAW thugs batter "scabs", even to today. We have a lawsuit out in Philly against some thugs who beat a guy who was protesting Clinton. They beat him senseless and they were members of the Teamsters.

I know how it went at one job where the USW came in, won the election and then played some pretty rough games before the shop folded up. I remember being told that "they" were gonna shoot us. I remember learning to back against the wall so that the forklifts didn't smash me. I made less than those bozos but I was a "suit" because I wore a tie to work.

Unions are in it for themselves, not for the Rank 'n File. Which is why they're losing membership in the US.

How will they fix this situation? Will they stand up for working people? Will they offer us the skills and flexibility to stand up to foreign labor? Will they give us non-union people a reason to join in a stand up ballot?

Nope. They want "Card Check". In other words they're gonna scam their way into the workplace. Worst thing they could do, instead of helping us they'll help themselves. No secret ballot, just the shaft. Lie to fifty percent plus one person and we're suddenly "organized".

Card Check is a dirty trick, an act of desperation and will hurt working people as well as the good that Unions can do.

Originally Posted by Reddog99

I have personally worked in both union & non-union shops and have seen the abuses that can happen when there is no union protection. I'd prefer to work a union shop every time.

The leaders of the group which opposed the Teamsters at a former job of mine were former members of the UAW and UMW. Not one of the former members of a Union supported the Teamsters.

Every one of the Union supporters were I work now have a gigantic chip on their shoulders. Not one of them has ever worked in a Union shop. They've got dreams and gigantic chips on their shoulders.

Originally Posted by Reddog99

I do happen to work in a Lean union shop where multi-skilling is promoted. I have also seen the results of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". We have a lot of people (management included) who are "qualified" to perform many tasks, albeit, not very well. You can't beat a journeyman's years of experience.

Sure you can beat a Journeyman's years of experience... when their skills become obsolete. Also when they sit on their ass instead of doing their job.

I worked for a year with an Instrument Builder who had Journeyman Papers and thirty years experience. The guy knew his shit. He despised Unions because he felt that they protected the lazy workers.

Nothing personal but "been there, done that". The IBEW ripped me off and I don't forget such things.

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

How can you be so sure? Can you explain?

Right now, at least 2/3 of elected officials in Washington are against this bailout. Almost all of republicans are against it and they still have enough power to stop a bailout. It will also take Bush's signature to pass it and he is against it. GM will not even make it to Obama's inauguration in January.

We'll see this week what happens but it's going to take an unexpected miracle to get this passed in the current congress. Time is quickly running out for GM and it doesn't look good.

So again, why are you sure they'll be fine?

I just do not see them failing. Chrysler failed and was purchased. Someone will buy them up and they will still exsist.

I am NOT fond of the past business practices and the writing has been on the wall for years with all the subvented leases and lies ....... I am actually pleased it has caught up to them.

I worked for a GM dealership and they were making on average of $6000 per truck and SUV on the back end while the salesman was earing $50 yes $50 bucks per unit.

I also worked at a toyoye dealership which was a totally differant concept.

I doubt they will vanish and I like to see the upper management sweat..... it's about time.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by Bob_VT

I just do not see them failing. Chrysler failed and was purchased. Someone will buy them up and they will still exsist.

When did Chrysler fail? Aside from the early '80's government loan, Chrysler has never failed. Daimler-Benz merged with Chrysler (Chrysler was actually in better shape before Mercedes came in). Then Cerberus bought 80% from Daimler after Mercedes sucked the life out of Chrysler.

[bobselectric]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

When did Chrysler fail? Aside from the early '80's government loan, Chrysler has never failed. Daimler-Benz merged with Chrysler (Chrysler was actually in better shape before Mercedes came in). Then Cerberus bought 80% from Daimler after Mercedes sucked the life out of Chrysler.

Chrysler has a long history of "mergers" and "working withs"--- the few I remember are Mitsubishi, Maserati (I think-- The Chrysler TC), Peugeot and Mercedes. To say that Mercedes sucked the life out of Chrysler is wrong, It was more like the Mercedes guys realizing how F'ed up Chrysler is and divorcing themselves ASAP.
Have you driven in a recent example of both companies lately? The Chrysler products are horrible, in ergonomics and quality. The Mercedes Chrysler minivan thing that Mercedes sells is disgusting. No wonder Mercedes quality took a hit when with Chrysler.
I own a Mercedes Sprinter van, which was badged as a Dodge when I bought it. None of the Chrysler/Dodge dealers had qualified "Sprinter Mechanics" which were a big selling point at the time of purchase. When my local dealer closed, the closest competent dealership was across the Hudson River. Unfortunately, at the time of purchase, the dealer neglected to tell me (or just didn't know) that the standard height Sprinter is considered an oversized vehicle in NYS--due to height and weight limits. So to avail myself of the promised service from Chrysler, it would cost me 13 dollars to go over the bridge, a normal six dollar toll.
Chrysler has always used other companies to bolster its product line. It usually lasts until they try to exert too much influence over product. Then they get dumped like the ugly fat girl at a frat party