I NEED Boost... Opinions puh-lease

[sleey0]

Or, maybe CTSCOTT can design something to trick the ECU to think it is always in openloop.

Then we would have 100" control of out cars/tuning withought standalone!

GREAT idea, now?

[eTiMaGo]

There is *potentially* such a trick, the other time the car is in open loop mode is when it's warming up. I've heard of tuners in Puerto Rico doing this, but you could put a resistor in line with the water temperature sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the car is *never* warm, hence it would stay in this warmup mode as long as you wanted. BUT, this is really a pretty dirty hack, I personally have no idea what other effects it may have...

[sleey0]

^^

Send this to ctscot and lets here his answer!!
Can't wait!

Then the car will REALLY be tunable w00t w00t!

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Originally Posted by eTiMaGo

From OBD datalogging that PK did some time ago, it seems the main condition for entering open loop is 75% signal from the throttle position sensor. So, put the pedal to the metal!

THANK YOU.

This is the information I needed.

Originally Posted by eTiMaGo

There is *potentially* such a trick, the other time the car is in open loop mode is when it's warming up. I've heard of tuners in Puerto Rico doing this, but you could put a resistor in line with the water temperature sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the car is *never* warm, hence it would stay in this warmup mode as long as you wanted. BUT, this is really a pretty dirty hack, I personally have no idea what other effects it may have...

I'm not feelin this lol. This is very iffy, and I feel like it would do more harm then good. Plus, fuel economy would blow if the car is constantly in open loop.

So I'm pretty baffled at this point though. What do I even need to tune? If I don't push the car hard enough to be entering open loop, then that's not really an issue... Afterall, the car runs fine at stoich.

[eTiMaGo]

but, where's the fun in driving a turbo'ed car sensibly all the time?

You *could* use a variable potentiometer, or switches, to change the water temp tweaking on the fly, when needed.

As for what you need to tune in open loop, there are loads of options out there, personally I would want to get my hands on an inexpensive apexi S-AFC and a wideband O2 gauge to see just how effective this kind of tweaking can be, even without boost (the Yaris does seem to generally run quite rich in open loop mode, might be just mine, but there's certainly some power to be gained by leaning things out at high RPMs)

[cali yaris]

You can pull the second O2 sensor, forcing a constant CEL, then tune the car. That is what ZPI did.

It's a really lame approach, though.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

You can pull the second O2 sensor, forcing a constant CEL, then tune the car. That is what ZPI did.

It's a really lame approach, though.

Bit lame, but better and probably safer than the water temp idea.

But back to my original question, is tuning closed loop even necessary? Because it's going to be a PITA...

Also - I hardly drive "sensibly" lol. But I just don't get it... If I'm not driving hard enough to enter open loop, then wouldn't I be best off just continuing to run stoich? Or is the hotter intake air too dangerous to run at 14.7 at all times? I DONT UNDERSTAND LOL.

[Bluevitz-rs]

The water temp trick will set a code eventually anyways. My parents Matrix set this code on it's own because the thermostat went bad and the car wasn't warming up fast enough. It took a long time to through the code though, as we found it wasn't heating up very quickly for a long time. PS it's only a '03 so I'm sure the Yaris has an even smarter ECU.

[cali yaris]

if you are in boost AT ALL, you don't want to be at 14.7. You should be able to make boost without going WOT.

Clear?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

if you are in boost AT ALL, you don't want to be at 14.7. You should be able to make boost without going WOT.

Clear?

Ok, this is what I thought originally.

So this means I do need to tune closed loop... So my options are what I originally stated - force the car into open loop or manipulate the O2 sensors. I guess I don't have much of a choice but to start fooling around with the O2 sensors.

[1.5ty]

Hey focus this is what you need to do not trying to be an ass here but you should take the car to a pro but if you don't want to here are a few thing to remember about tuning 1st it's always easier with two people but not needed ok when you start tuning you want to tune a no load meaning idle like I said before your looking for a a/f of 11:2 to 11:5 I'm not trying to tell you anything wrong if you take Otto a tuner that's what there going to look for so at idle set it around 11:5 after you get that then start with a light load don't get in to boost this is where two people come in hand as your driving cool at your gauges and the pc when you see your starting to leave the sweet zone of 11:2/11:5 then stop make a few changes and start again after you get that set the keep giving it more of a load and more till you have ran put on rpms to play with but always stay in that sweet zone of 11:2/11:5 there is no need to play with the 02 other then with the fic everything can be done with the pc as soon I get my oil leak under controll I well start tuning with my fic and when I'm done I'll give you a full tune of 8psi or what ever psi your running but like I said there is no need to play with the 02 other then using the pc


And for those that think I wrong go ask any pro tuner and the will tell you everything I just said I have tuned using aem before so I know what I'm talking about

[1.5ty]

Sorry about my spelling I'm using my iPad and it mess-up some of the words

[1.5ty]

Yep I haven't done this for the last 3yr I haven't tuned anything with more power than a yairs so thing what ya want and ill do as I've done ill quit tryin to help more power to ya camelll

[cali yaris]

^ Sorry but you WERE incorrect on several of your points. Go ahead and "do as you've done", or stick around and learn something.

We each make our own choices, and you can make yours for you car, but posting totally incorrect information will rightfully get challenged.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Guys, thanks so much for the input.

1.5ty, I appreciate your help but I know for a fact that technique is not going to fly with this car. I've added fuel with the FIC while idling and watched the AFR drop to 14- on my wideband then get immediately corrected. Open loop and closed loop are a big deal here.

Camelll, thanks so much bro. I've been wondering how Blitz handled this. Unfortunately, it gives me no more information than I already have.

What I find interesting is that you're boosting for awhile while in closed loop, correct? About what PSI do you reach before open loop kicks in in your case? The fact that you've been running two years successfully while boosting in closed loop really leads me to question how unsafe 14.7 is under light boost... Yes, I know I'm comparing two completely different things, but boost is boost - hot compressed air being forced into the manifold. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[cali yaris]

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

Right, but wouldn't there be some sort of a trend where open loop usually kicks in? Or can you just floor it, be outside of boost still, and throw the car into open loop?

...Am I just not driving my car hard enough? lol

[eTiMaGo]

we actually brainstormed and did some research about this a few years back, if you wanna take the time to sift through it:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15350
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21431

Pay close attention to the excel files linked, PK did some good data logging, and yes, no matter what your car is doing, what gear you're in, mash the throttle past the 75% signal and it'll go open loop.

In my mind, the ideal "simple" setup around open and closed loop would be what I call the Jekyll and Hyde approach. A boost controller set up for very gentle boost (maybe 5psi) for use during closed loop operation, and higher boost for open loop, and this would be triggered by the throttle position sensor. Add to that a piggyback that can also have different profiles based on throttle input (such as the apexi SAFC mentioned in the second link above), so that it'll let the ECU do its thing in closed loop, but then mess with things once the throttle goes past 75%.

So, driving "normally", you get the benefit of added power without reaching the limits of the engine/ECU, but when you put your foot down, then you get extra boost, and the piggyback to provide more appropriate fuelling, to unleash the beast within