Drove a 2013 Fiat 500 for a week; Love my Yaris even more

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

there is hyperbole, then there is reality.

was Toyota considered one of the most reliable makes in 2003? darn right they were. the long term dependability study (not the quite useless 90 day initial study) had Toyota #2 at 196 problems per 100 vehicles. http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/ap...D7S5IAI00.html

in 2014, in the same study, the make that comes in last is Mini, at 185 problems per 100 vehicles . http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/201...ss-Release.htm

This supports the assertion by most experts in the automotive industry that the least dependable cars of today are more dependable than the most dependable from several years ago.

It is even more telling that todays cars have far more electronic gadgetry to go wrong than they did 10+ years ago, yet the problems per vehicle continue to go down year by year.

so, I say buy whatever suits your desires. modern cars are all relatively reliable these days.....what has changed is the proliferation of social media and with it the amplification of every problem known to man.

While those numbers are nice, they miss the most important thing of all, how much the cars cost to fix said issues. Cost of ownership is so much more important.I wouldn't give a damn how many issues per 100 my brand of car has if I have an issue that is going to cost me several grand to fix, or has a required maintenance item that is absurdly expensive.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

While those numbers are nice, they miss the most important thing of all, how much the cars cost to fix said issues. Cost of ownership is so much more important.I wouldn't give a damn how many issues per 100 my brand of car has if I have an issue that is going to cost me several grand to fix, or has a required maintenance item that is absurdly expensive.

sure. depends on the car. depends on the part. mini was just the example because they were last on the list. there are plenty of parts/repairs on Toyotas and Hondas that I think are absurd. (price wise). I agree that on certain makes, preventative maintenance will take a bigger bite out of ones pocket.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

sure. depends on the car. depends on the part. mini was just the example because they were last on the list. there are plenty of parts/repairs on Toyotas and Hondas that I think are absurd. (price wise). I agree that on certain makes, preventative maintenance will take a bigger bite out of ones pocket.

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Not compared to other vehicles. Mini is one of them that has ridiculous normal maintenance charges because they are BMW. I spend about $150 or so when I need to take my Yaris in, mini, bmw, etc are $1000 just to start.

That cost is so much more important than the number of things that go wrong per car. I can take my car in every 10,000 miles and spend less than people who own those cars spend on 1 visit.

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by why?

Way to try to sidestep everything. Nothing beats the reliability and the dirt cheap cost of the Yaris. And while all cars are getting better, they still aren't Toyota. Just assuming every car is going to be reliable is the way to find yourself buying a total lemon. like this guy.

Yes, all cars are getting better. But That doesn't make all car experiences equal. Nor does it make all dealer networks equal. And it certainly doesn't make all cost of ownership equal, which again, is so much more important than specific number of problems per car.

Because let's face it, the survey is massively flawed. Like the year oldsmobile closed and all of a sudden all those oldsmobile owners bought kia's and hyundai's and what do you know? All of a sudden kia and hyundai's are at the top of the list. Until those people who are too nice to complain realize those cars are not very good.

Stop harping on one small study and realize there is so much more to a car ownership experience. The big picture is more important than any single small snapshot that 1 survey takes.

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

[why?]

Originally Posted by roxy1

first, its not one small study..its massive, and the data collected is on 3 yrs of ownership. I cant recall ever seeing kia at the top of one of the JD Powers Vehicle Dependability studies. if they were, let me know which year as id like to take a look at it. data is proving that Toyotas, Hondas, etc.. aren't that much more reliable than most other makes anymore. I know it hurts the fanboys to here this, but the globalization of manufacturing processes and , and parts procurement along with shared technologies was bound to lead things in that direction.

I never said anything about dealership experiences....except that I bought my Toyota in part because I like my dealer, so I don't know who you are arguing against there.

lots of things go into the true cost of owning a car...depreciation, fuel costs, insurance costs, financing, repairs, maintenance, average state sales taxes, registration fees. there are all kinds of publications/organizations that have compiled data on which cars and makes offer the lowest ownership costs. again, Honda and Toyota aren't overly represented as they were 15 years ago.

I used to be a Honda, then Toyota loyalist for years. I still like both companies, but there are a heck of a lot of really good cars being built these days and I just don't see the overall advantage to owning these two makes as I did in 1995.

You are arguing the only thing that matters is one study. That is just absurd and ridiculous in every possible way. And 3 years? Give me a break. Totally amazingly worthless since the average age of the American car fleet is the oldest it has ever been at something like 11 years.

No one but you has said there are not other good cars out there. You are arguing against yourself or refusing to read in most of your posts. There are other good cars and brands out there.

But most of them cost more to do anything to. Maybe you've had a very narrow experience when it comes to cars, but I have not. My family has owned literally a fleet of different used cars, so I actually know what most brands cost to fix. Saab, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Infiniti, Plymouth, Chrysler, Lincoln, Cadillac, Jaguar, Mazda and I am sure I am forgetting something.

My Yaris is by far the cheapest vehicle to maintain. Your 1 study does not compare to the many many resources on the internet that show actual cost of ownership and reliability of vehicles over their entire life. It is time to stop clinging to that study like it is the only thing keeping you alive.

[jcboy]

Originally Posted by roxy1

that's mini. the point wasn't about mini. the point was that the whole "superior reliability" mantra just isn't supported by empirical data anymore (the way it clearly was 15+ years ago). there are a bunch of other makes that have less repairs than Toyota did just 11 yrs ago...ford, chevy, Nissan, etc...that are not real expensive to repair or maintain (certainly not noticeably more than are Toyotas).

are Toyota's a little more reliable than most other makes? yes, but by an ever shrinking margin. are Toyotas cheaper to maintain and fix than mini or vw? yes, so are most other makes that are pretty close to what it costs to maintain and repair a Toyota.

for me, long gone are the days of having to look at only Hondas and Toyotas...I can look at just about any small car out there and not be too worried about dependability or repair costs (mini and vw not withstanding)

makes sense, thanks roxy for the insight. yes the mantra is there, but on the other side the industry survey numbers you presented may not also be the reality.

TBH, i used to be a toyota fan, owned a van for more than a decade, then became a honda loyalist, owned a civic for around the same time. then i went back to toyota after test-driving several (brandnew) test cars.
when i testdrove, i have heard a clunking noise from the suspension on a mazda 2, i have felt the flimsiness of switches/stalks of hyundai accent and kia pride, among other things. i have several friends who owned several other cars, which i help them maintain. the suspension of mitsubishi and mazda--let's not even go there.

reliability? i would say toyota is still best (and cheapest), honda is 2nd (rubber bushings are their achilles heel), nissan/mitsubishi/mazda would be something not in my answers to put it simply.

again, you have a point. unfortunately i am unsure as to whether they're closing in as fast as the industry survey numbers say.