Rethinking the Role of the Automobile

[brickhardmeat]

Originally Posted by BailOut

It's called a conspiracy. The oil companies were in on it. The Big 3 (now the Little 1.75) were in on it. Your government was in on it.

And you've probably been in on it, too, without knowing it.

Every time you've driven a big vehicle you've been in on it. Every time you've mashed the gas pedal you've been in on it. Every time you drove out just to get a meal, or a coffee, or a movie, and did no other errands you've been in on it. Every time you drove to a friend's house just because you were bored you've been in on it. Every time you went to buy a vehicle and didn't even consider its fuel efficiency you've been in on it. Etc., etc., etc.

Don't feel bad, though. I was a part of it for a long time, too. But now I know and do and act better.

So can you. You've already made a good step by purchasing a small vehicle that can be quite fuel efficient with just a few little changes in your driving style.

Well, I can't say you don't have a cause.

Jezuz Kriste ----I'm surprised you even own a car. What is you A/C set on in the house? I'm going to assume you probably cook everything over an open flame produced soley by rubbing two sticks together. Please tell me you do not own a TV, you refuse to shop at Wal Mart, you eat absolutly no processed food everything must be "organic" bla, bla , bla

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by brickhardmeat

Well, I can't say you don't have a cause.

Jezuz Kriste ----I'm surprised you even own a car. What is you A/C set on in the house? I'm going to assume you probably cook everything over an open flame produced soley by rubbing two sticks together. Please tell me you do not own a TV, you refuse to shop at Wal Mart, you eat absolutly no processed food everything must be "organic" bla, bla , bla

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming. As you know, though, I get around 50 MPG in the Yaris, so it's not so bad for now. It also gets washed at a non-toxic, biodegradable waste, recycling car wash.

When I walk to lunch, which is any day the weather is warm enough, I speak with anyone I find sitting in their vehicle while idling the engine for nothing. I warmly and kindly explain to them about the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon, keeping Tahoe blue, zero MPG, etc., and they always thank me and turn off their engines.

The AC in the house is set at 78F and is only allowed to run 3 hours per day (1500-1800), and only when the outside temperature gets higher than 90F. We have ultra-efficient windows and I have re-insulated the entire house, even the outlet and light sockets. Despite temperatures up into the mid-90's last weekend I never heard the compressor or fan run for more than half of the allotted time.

Cooking is done over a natural-gas stove that is used as efficiently as possible, or in the solar cooker I built if time allows. The solar cooker gets a lot of use on the weekends, too, as long as the winds aren't too high.

We do own a TV, and it's my one indulgence. It's a 50" plasma I saved up for over a long period. Yes, it sucks a lot of juice, but I balanced it out by swapping every bulb in the house to CFLs, using my laptop 95% of the time instead of my desktop, training the wife to turn off the light when she leaves a room and publishing my electricity audit on CleanMPG (which has been stickied). Over the last 6 months we have dropped our electricity and natural gas usage by almost 70%.

My youngest daughter thought our new ultra-efficient instant hot water recirculator was so cool she took it to school for show and tell for Earth Day, and got an A+.

Yes, we refuse to shop at Wal-Mart. It is an evil, exploitative company that has made a dark game of hiding the true cost - and origin - of things.

No, we do not eat processed food, especially no trans fats, no carbonated beverages and no beef (not a processing issue, but to conserve water). We buy organic whenever we can, and "all natural" when we can't. We support our local growers via attending the weekly farmer's markets during the warmer months, and remote farmers via the Fair Trade system in the colder months. Since cleaning up our diet we have all had more energy, less sick - or just icky - days, and clearer skin. My good cholesterol level is back up where it should be and my wife's bad cholesterol level is down where it should be, all without taking a single pill.

I quit smoking last December after 20 years, so that also helped with the energy level and whatnot. The only drawback is that spicy food kicks my butt now, when I used to douse everything in Tabasco sauce.

We also use laundry detergent that has no phosphates and I make my own lawn and garden fertilizers via composting our food, paper and lawn waste. Any paper waste that cannot be used for compost is shredded and bagged for use as shipping/packing padding.

Our HOA demands we keep a nice lawn, so my sprinkler system is dialed in as best as is practically possible. We get by on just 80% of the State's watering recommendations and, despite the front sprinklers running for 20 minutes at a time on the sloped yard, you cannot find more than a few ounces of water runoff on the sidewalks or driveway.

My lawn mower and edger are efficient electrics, and our electricity comes from a local geothermal plant (the greenest electricity there is).

This week's project is a dog poop composter, so that we don't have to send the stuff to the landfill anymore.

Speaking of the landfill, since we recycle and compost so much I only put out the garbage can our service gave us once every month or two.

Speaking of recycling, I started a recycling project at work, too, which ended up encompassing our entire business complex. It captures so much recyclable waste that at first I had to request weekly pick-up instead of the normal bi-weekly. Like often happens with recycling, though, once people actually *see* how much stuff they tear through they naturally and automatically cut back their consumption levels, and in less than 6 months we were back to bi-weekly pickup. I also got us flipped out to CFL's in all of our work spaces, dropping our electricity usage by over 30%.

As soon as the next generation of solar technology streets in another year or two you'll find an array on my house so large that I'll be selling discounted juice to my neighbors as well as nullifying my own bill.

So far this year I have volunteered about 30 hours for things like the Kids for Conservation Festival, SnapShot Day (aquifer measurements and testing), e-recycling and judging the local Elementary School's Science Fair.

I've got my parents-in-law conserving energy, parking their Tahoe in favor of the sedan and recycling more than ever. I have my Brother-in-law getting ready to trade his Silverado on a Prius or HCH (he can't make up his mind). I inspired my best friend back in Texas to buy a Prius 2 weeks ago and am teaching him to hypermile it. I have had about a dozen people follow me to CleanMPG and become hypermilers. I turned my coworkers on to recycling and electricity conservation, so much so that many of them have started recycling at home, and two have flipped out their entire homes to CFLs. Another is looking at trading in his Yukon for a Yaris.


Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

[brickhardmeat]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming. As you know, though, I get around 50 MPG in the Yaris, so it's not so bad for now. It also gets washed at a non-toxic, biodegradable waste, recycling car wash.

When I walk to lunch, which is any day the weather is warm enough, I speak with anyone I find sitting in their vehicle while idling the engine for nothing. I warmly and kindly explain to them about the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon, keeping Tahoe blue, zero MPG, etc., and they always thank me and turn off their engines.

The AC in the house is set at 78F and is only allowed to run 3 hours per day (1500-1800), and only when the outside temperature gets higher than 90F. We have ultra-efficient windows and I have re-insulated the entire house, even the outlet and light sockets. Despite temperatures up into the mid-90's last weekend I never heard the compressor or fan run for more than half of the allotted time.

Cooking is done over a natural-gas stove that is used as efficiently as possible, or in the solar cooker I built if time allows. The solar cooker gets a lot of use on the weekends, too, as long as the winds aren't too high.

We do own a TV, and it's my one indulgence. It's a 50" plasma I saved up for over a long period. Yes, it sucks a lot of juice, but I balanced it out by swapping every bulb in the house to CFLs, using my laptop 95% of the time instead of my desktop, training the wife to turn off the light when she leaves a room and publishing my electricity audit on CleanMPG (which has been stickied). Over the last 6 months we have dropped our electricity and natural gas usage by almost 70%.

My youngest daughter thought our new ultra-efficient instant hot water recirculator was so cool she took it to school for show and tell for Earth Day, and got an A+.

Yes, we refuse to shop at Wal-Mart. It is an evil, exploitative company that has made a dark game of hiding the true cost - and origin - of things.

No, we do not eat processed food, especially no trans fats, no carbonated beverages and no beef (not a processing issue, but to conserve water). We buy organic whenever we can, and "all natural" when we can't. We support our local growers via attending the weekly farmer's markets during the warmer months, and remote farmers via the Fair Trade system in the colder months. Since cleaning up our diet we have all had more energy, less sick - or just icky - days, and clearer skin. My good cholesterol level is back up where it should be and my wife's bad cholesterol level is down where it should be, all without taking a single pill.

I quit smoking last December after 20 years, so that also helped with the energy level and whatnot. The only drawback is that spicy food kicks my butt now, when I used to douse everything in Tabasco sauce.

We also use laundry detergent that has no phosphates and I make my own lawn and garden fertilizers via composting our food, paper and lawn waste. Any paper waste that cannot be used for compost is shredded and bagged for use as shipping/packing padding.

Our HOA demands we keep a nice lawn, so my sprinkler system is dialed in as best as is practically possible. We get by on just 80% of the State's watering recommendations and, despite the front sprinklers running for 20 minutes at a time on the sloped yard, you cannot find more than a few ounces of water runoff on the sidewalks or driveway.

My lawn mower and edger are efficient electrics, and our electricity comes from a local geothermal plant (the greenest electricity there is).

This week's project is a dog poop composter, so that we don't have to send the stuff to the landfill anymore.

Speaking of the landfill, since we recycle and compost so much I only put out the garbage can our service gave us once every month or two.

Speaking of recycling, I started a recycling project at work, too, which ended up encompassing our entire business complex. It captures so much recyclable waste that at first I had to request weekly pick-up instead of the normal bi-weekly. Like often happens with recycling, though, once people actually *see* how much stuff they tear through they naturally and automatically cut back their consumption levels, and in less than 6 months we were back to bi-weekly pickup. I also got us flipped out to CFL's in all of our work spaces, dropping our electricity usage by over 30%.

As soon as the next generation of solar technology streets in another year or two you'll find an array on my house so large that I'll be selling discounted juice to my neighbors as well as nullifying my own bill.

So far this year I have volunteered about 30 hours for things like the Kids for Conservation Festival, SnapShot Day (aquifer measurements and testing), e-recycling and judging the local Elementary School's Science Fair.

I've got my parents-in-law conserving energy, parking their Tahoe in favor of the sedan and recycling more than ever. I have my Brother-in-law getting ready to trade his Silverado on a Prius or HCH (he can't make up his mind). I inspired my best friend back in Texas to buy a Prius 2 weeks ago and am teaching him to hypermile it. I have had about a dozen people follow me to CleanMPG and become hypermilers. I turned my coworkers on to recycling and electricity conservation, so much so that many of them have started recycling at home, and two have flipped out their entire homes to CFLs. Another is looking at trading in his Yukon for a Yaris.


Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

That's all i wanted to know was do you practice what you preach in most/all aspects of your life. I am one of thos people who will call you out for bullshitting. Sounds like you are taking this to the limit and I commend you for being responsible.

I myself

Don't drink.
Don't smoke.
Don't do drugs.
but I do indulge in some prcossed foods on occasion, I consume supplements and tremendous amounts of caffine, I throw my garbage in the trash and I shop at Wal Mart

I eat fish but I do not eat any other kinds of meat. I recently added fish (in the last year) to my diet after 15 years of strict dieting (no meat). This is a personal decision that is not based on any form of religion and I don't go around telling other people that they shouldn't consume animals.

I workout 5 days a week.

[palsan]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming.
Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

Bailout,

I'm not trying to pick a fight - in fact I commend you for your efforts.

I'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the answer to energy conservation. You must remember that electricity doesn't just appear - it takes energy to produce it!

In many cases electricity is produced from fossil fuels (the same ones you are trying to conserve by using EV's).

Even where electricity is produced from water movement (hydroelectric) or from the sun/wind (solar panels, wind turbines) etc. energy and resources are required to make the equipment to convert those forms of energy to electricity and to store the electricity to be available when needed.

I'm no engineer but I believe that when you actually add it all up an EV actually uses more energy per mile travelled than an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle. I say this not as a statement of fact but based on reading somewhere that the ICE is currently the most efficient way of producing power.

One other point, just because one form of energy is cheaper to buy doesn't necessarily mean that its cheaper to produce. I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Ontario (Canada) electricity is highly subsidized so a comparison between electricity & gasoline to run a vehicle is an apples to oranges comparison. While it may be true that electric vehicles "save" energy for an individual (debatable), its unlikely that the overall impact to the economy/environment is positive.

[Yaris]

In 2003 I swapped out all light bulbs in my new home with CFL's but wasn't doing it for the environment, I was just being a cheapskate.
I now own 2 Edison-base LED bulbs and primarily use them as nightlights. As soon as the price of brighter LED's drop to more affordable levels, I will go on a shopping spree again and upgrade to them.
If I could swap out all primary bulbs in my Yaris for brighter LED's, I would do it today.

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by palsan

In many cases electricity is produced from fossil fuels (the same ones you are trying to conserve by using EV's).

The CARB did some studies on this back in the late 90's and consistently found that even when the electricity is produced using fossil fuels EV's come out greatly cleaner than ICE-based vehicles, not only from the fuel perspective but also from emissions and all of the other fossil-based and consumable items an ICE needs like crankcase oil, transmission fluid (CVTs are generally non-serviceable units), replacement air filters and oil filters, etc.

Originally Posted by palsan

Even where electricity is produced from water movement (hydroelectric) or from the sun/wind (solar panels, wind turbines) etc. energy and resources are required to make the equipment to convert those forms of energy to electricity and to store the electricity to be available when needed.

This notion is a darling of the Republican party in the U.S. Yes, it does indeed take resources to create things like solar panels or hydroelectric plants. However, internal combustion engines don't grow on trees, oil doesn't take itself out of the ground, refine itself or transport itself, gas stations aren't made from mud and the trucks that haul the fuel all over your country get about 7 MPG.

Allow me to also point out that the primary component of solar cells is silicon, which comes from one of the most mundane, plentiful and easily attainable resources on the planet: sand. The main energy type needed to create the silicates is heat, which normally comes from the burning of natural gas. While natural gas is also a finite resource and takes some dirty work to get it out of the ground and transport it, it at least burns cleanly.

Once a PV cell is created it has a 100% service life of 25 years and a 50% service life of 40 years. A drop of gasoline can only be burned once.

Originally Posted by palsan

I'm no engineer but I believe that when you actually add it all up an EV actually uses more energy per mile travelled than an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle. I say this not as a statement of fact but based on reading somewhere that the ICE is currently the most efficient way of producing power.

I read that same study and it has been picked apart by dozens of sources. It only looked at the ICE's power generation efficiency from the fuel intake forward, not taking into account how the fuel got into the tank to begin with or what happens to the hydrocarbons once they are burned (emissions).

Originally Posted by palsan

One other point, just because one form of energy is cheaper to buy doesn't necessarily mean that its cheaper to produce. I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Ontario (Canada) electricity is highly subsidized so a comparison between electricity & gasoline to run a vehicle is an apples to oranges comparison. While it may be true that electric vehicles "save" energy for an individual (debatable), its unlikely that the overall impact to the economy/environment is positive.

Where I live power is fully privatized and only lightly regulated, but even if it were subsidized it would still be better than gasoline because you have no idea just how large a subsidization can be until you have taken a close look at the oil industry. How would you like to have the U.S. military on-call to protect your company's assets abroad?

Additionally, it is impossible to cleanly get oil out of the ground, refine it, transport it, etc. but there are many clean ways to produce and transport electricity. What's more is that electricity can be a totally renewable resource while gasoline most certainly is not, and it can be produced on small, local (even individual) scales.

Some say we're already at peak oil, and that correlates with my own research. As such I will definitely be an early adopter of commercialized and supportable EV/PHEV technology.

[bnther36]

Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

Despite whatever anyone else may say, I applaud and thank you, Bailout for your efforts for putting forth a personal effort in living responsibly.