Would an All-Electric yaris be cheaper in the long run?

[bzinn 1]

my buddy at work bought a datsun last year,not sure but think it is the B210......he got the electric motor and batteries so far,and most the wires and other stuff.......no tranny as the motor bolts up to drive line via a converter of some sort.....

his total investment is under $6000.....and he figures the car will do 12second 1/4miles.......

there are people out there doing electric conversions all over and it is a really cool alternative and honestly the parts are fairly comparabel to fossil fuel drive tranes.......


Electric yaris I would buy......honestly this is about the funnest car I have owned,takes no gas,drives forever,pretty well built,has enough creature comforts to keep me happy,cheap,and looks cool with minor mods liek wheels and tint......

[BailOut]

Well said, Astroman. Over 70% of our electricity comes from local geothermal plants, which is just about as sustainable as energy gets. We have less power outages here by far than when we lived in north Texas, where the power is all from coal and natural gas. It is more expensive here but it has nothing to do with the source, but rather with the high cost of upgrading and modernizing the State-wide grid, mostly in an effort to better protect southern Nevada from the shenanigans of California's utilities.

Speaking of southern Nevada, the Hoover Dam has been producing electricity continuously for almost 70 years, having never required any work beyond typical maintenance. We also have the Nevada Solar One project near Boulder City, which is the largest concentrated solar power plant in the world. By itself it produces enough electricity during the hottest parts of the summer days when everyone is running their air conditioners that no extra power has to be brought in from anywhere else, which also saved our State from some of the more expensive grid upgrades that were in discussion.

A neighboring town gets 100% of their power from a flume station alongside the Truckee River which has been in operation for more than 50 years.

Next year a series of wind turbines are being placed in a nearby area that was extensively mined throughout the mid to late 1800s. That whole area is considered too polluted and unstable for any sort of other use, but the energy they will provide will peak in the evening nearly year round, when local winds get so strong that trucks and trailers are only allowed on certain highways. The energy they will produce is expected to offset most, if not all, of the 30% electricity that our geothermal plants have difficulty meeting in the evenings.

One of the largest casinos here in Reno has their own geothermal tap which provides the vast majority of the electricity, heating and hot water for their entire operations including the hotel units. For an initial investment of $2mil it has been saving them over $3mil per year in energy costs,

In other words, there's no reason at all to have so much venom for sustainable and renewable energy. Not only does it work, but it works extremely well, and does not harm our planet's resources or atmosphere at nearly the levels that dirty energy sources do.

In fact, sustainable and renewable energy works so well for us that in the last 2 years we've been able to stop not just one but three coal plant permits from being granted within our State while still being able to comfortably accommodate 15% growth for the next decade to twelve years, which is actually more than double the projections for growth.

[daf62757]

Originally Posted by Astroman

Wow.... Your statement is wrong in so many ways. I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

Our wind farms are not subject to hurricanes, that is strictly coastal areas, and nor do we get cyclones. Those wind farms are put in with agreement (and nice compensation) to grazing land owners.

Eelectric cars might not be cost wise for all areas, but here in the Pacific Nortwest they certainly are. We even have a outfit here in the area that does plug-in conversions for hybrids. So please, save us the myth that hurricanes and beavers make "green" energy viable. We've been doing it here for over 60 years, long before Fox News, and the proof is in our low electricity rates and our awesome clean air.

Too bad we all don't live in your neighborhood......but we can't. And the country has to live and make energy choices based on the average, not the exception of your neck of the woods. And what does Fox news have to do with it?

You should have started your pontification with the qualification of "In my opinion" because that is all it is. Your opinion.

[Sidicas]

Originally Posted by Astroman

Wow.... Your statement is wrong in so many ways. I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

I've never heard of a single renewable energy based power station that didn't need government funds to be competitive, but I don't doubt that there's probably a few of them out there.

Not everybody is "lucky" enough to live along fault lines where there is tons of free geothermal energy to tap into.. Of course, that's kind of like having an oil well in your backyard and not having to worry about the global market's gas prices..

If the power infrastructure existed such that it was possible for you to sell your cheap electricity to us people here in NY, you could kiss your cheap electricity prices goodbye..

We're paying 17 cents a kilowatt hour here..

[why?]

lol. the pacific northwest is a unique situation. They got there hydroelectrics way before it was cool to be an ecoterrorist and attack anything that would make life better. It wouldn't have a chance in hell of happenining now.

Geothermal is something that can be more widely used. However, like the majority of renewable resources, it has limited uses and areas.

And don't even start about wind farms and solar. Solar energy for the nation simply can't happen, the technology isn't there. And windmills are a nice idea, but extremely limited in their uses.

The simple fact is that if it could be done to compete in the marketplace, people would be doing it.

Even when it can, the greenies come out and start attacking anyone who wants to. So much for actually wanting anything... Like in the Cape Cod wind farm situation, when you push comes to shove, they just want to own your lives, and nothing more.

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by daf62757

Too bad we all don't live in your neighborhood......but we can't. And the country has to live and make energy choices based on the average, not the exception of your neck of the woods. And what does Fox news have to do with it?

You should have started your pontification with the qualification of "In my opinion" because that is all it is. Your opinion.

lol, those are the facts, not my opinion. Except for the fox news jab, your statement about beavers, epa and hurricanes is something you would hear from a faux news talking head.

People did fight the windfarms here, but only because they said it ruined the view even though they were built on hills that only had grass and a few sage brush. And for the killing of birds, my friend only saw one in a year on a 50+ windfarm, and there was no evidence it was killed by the windmachine.

Sadly there isn't a one-size fits all for everyone. Our utility power here is publicly owned so we get great rates. Privatized power is where the rates really start to climb and reliability becomes an issue.

The bottom line electric is cleaner here than any other form of energy and is cheap, renewable, and clean. Making electric vehicles a real viable option

http://www.cbr.washington.edu/crisp/hydro/ The two dams in my area are both non-federal projects, Rocky Reach and Rock Island Dams.

[cali yaris]

electric is cleaner here than any other form of energy and is cheap, renewable, and clean

It has the potential to be renewable and clean, but it is not at this time, so I have to correct you there.

I'm a big fan of modernizing our grid and adding as many renewable resources to it as possible. I also read in a science journal that a solar grid 100x100 miles in size would produce enough electric power for the entire country.

I know that's BIG, but it's not that big -- an encouraging statistic in my opinion.

[talnlnky]

it'd be cool if they could figure a way to make solar panels more efficient... I believe the efficiencies are in the teens.

If there was a bolt on Electric motor which allowed for electric, or gas operation I would totally do that. I don't want to go full electric though because of the 470mile one way commute I do from time to time. If I could do the first hour or two of that soley on electric power, and then switch to gas... that'd be cool. Would allow me to go 70mph and still do the whole trip without stopping for gas. Easily shave off 10-15 minutes.

[Sidicas]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

I also read in a science journal that a solar grid 100x100 miles in size would produce enough electric power for the entire country.

The most efficient and best solar panels that you can buy right now are about $30 for a panel the size of your fist... It'd take 250 million of them to fill up a single square mile.. Multiply that by 100 miles in one direction and then another 100 miles in the other direction to get 100x100 square miles..

You're looking at 2 trillion 500 billion fist sized solar panels at $30 a piece.. 75 trillion dollars, that's over 6 times the current national debt.. Does that still sound reasonable? How about if you factor in that our power demands are growing rapidly...

[Zaphod]

I doubt there is enough demand for Toyota to produce a profitable all electric short ranger commuter vehicle.

[toyo]

don't really know about how the government in the us finances electricity, but in my country it is all privately owned, and it would not benefit anyone to have an electric car, unless the government got in to the electric bussiness and stop thinking about profit over global warming =(

[TheSilkySmooth]

check this
http://www.commutercars.com/home.html

[DevilGirl]

Originally Posted by scape

now a diesel-hybrid yaris would rock, imo, it'd also probably be around 16-18k$ or more, when all is said and done :\

A diesel hybrid would be the only hybrid I would even consider. I find it sad that, on average, I see better fuel economy in my all gas Yaris than is seen in some of the hybrids out there... (I commute mostly highway, so the hybrid thing really isn't an option, as it costs more and does no better than what I have).

Originally Posted by why?

The biggest argument against them has not been presented yet: Range. Even the Chevy Volt, supposedly the most advanced hybrid, can't go squat on battery only. Battery technology is not even close to where it needs to be for ev's to be useful. A range of at least 200 miles on a charge at maximum of 8 hours is necessary.

And then, say the range is decent, the price is alright, you have to calculate electricity costs and all that other good stuff.

Range would be the killer for me. I like being able to go 3 days commuting without filling up my Yaris. Can your electric vehicle do that? Once it can, then I'd consider it.

Originally Posted by jambo101

Sounds like an option i would consider if 100% of my driving was local,but when doing trips of 500 miles or more how far you going to get before you need to plug it in? and where will you plug it in? and how long will you have to wait till its charged?

Where to "refill" would be the biggest issue. I can see the electric vehicle being a local commuter car only. And that's it. And I'm talking less than 20 miles one way to work.

Originally Posted by Astroman

I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

Our wind farms are not subject to hurricanes, that is strictly coastal areas, and nor do we get cyclones. Those wind farms are put in with agreement (and nice compensation) to grazing land owners.

Eelectric cars might not be cost wise for all areas, but here in the Pacific Nortwest they certainly are. We even have a outfit here in the area that does plug-in conversions for hybrids. So please, save us the myth that hurricanes and beavers make "green" energy viable. We've been doing it here for over 60 years, long before Fox News, and the proof is in our low electricity rates and our awesome clean air.

I believe it's been said already about different parts of the country not really being able to utilize the same types of renewable energy. Again, climate and other environmental factors make this not really possible in certain areas. But that's wonderful that your area can. Keep on doin it!

Until such time as this country/government can actually produce viable, inexpensive vehicles, I'll stick with my gasser, and do just fine with it.

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by DevilGirl

Range would be the killer for me. I like being able to go 3 days commuting without filling up my Yaris. Can your electric vehicle do that? Once it can, then I'd consider it.

Because plugging in a cord is just soooo much work!

[why?]

Originally Posted by BailOut

Because plugging in a cord is just soooo much work!

Because no one travels more than 40 miles a day... no not ever, no one has a daily commute that long, never mind wanting to do chores, pickup groceries, maybe go out after work... that absolutely never happens...

[cali yaris]

sarcasm vs. sarcasm = fail

electric vehicles will certainly become popular when their ranges are extended, say to about 250-300 miles?

I'll get one sooner, I have a short commute and like I said, when I put in solar panels for my house, the "gas" is FREE.

[Sidicas]

Wow, just for fun..
I ran some numbers..
I converted electricity, food, and fuel into a universal energy amount and then computed the cost of that energy amount for the amount of energy you get..


Electricity ($0.21 a kilowatt hour NY)
1 kWh = $0.21
1 kWh = 3600000 J
1cal=4184 joules
1 kWh = 860 kcal
1000kcal / 860 kcal = 1.16279
1000kcal for $0.24

Food ($1 for a Whopper Jr.)
WhopperJr = 370 kcal
370 kcal for $1.00 (Whopper Jr.)
1000kcal / 370 = 2.7027
1000kcal for $2.70

Fuel ($2.83 a gallon)
1gal = 31mil cals
1gal = 31,000 kcal
1gal = $2.83
1000kcal / 31,000 kcal = 0.032258
1000kcal for $0.09

Conclusion: By FAR, gasoline is still the cheaper way to go here in NY.. Feel free to plug in your own numbers to find out how close electricity gets to fuel costs... Interesting conclusion is that food (even junk food) is very expensive for the small amount of energy you get out of it.

Really puts things in perspective doesn't it.. All those people who consume ridiculous amounts of calories and spend every day in the gym is just wasting tons of precious expensive energy (food)..

Edit:
1 pound of body fat = 3500 kcal
3500kcal / 370kcal (whopper Jrs) = 9.46 Whopper Jrs. in a pound of fat
Value of pound of body fat in food energy = $9.46 per pound of body fat.

Value of pound of body fat if energy is converted into raw electricity
(impossible 100% efficiency assumed): ($0.24)*(3.5) = $0.84

Value of pound of body fat if energy is converted into gasoline (impossible)
($0.09)*(3.5) = $0.32


Can somebody please explain why we're putting the most expensive source of energy (food/ethanol) into gasoline, in order to save gasoline (the cheapest source of energy)?? I don't know, but when you run the numbers it looks like a really dumb thing to do..