"Parmas" Motor

[TheRealEnth]

Top mount FTW

[cali yaris]

don't be a fanboi... front mounts are overrated.

pluses and minuses for both, but I always enjoy a good pissing contest, so carry on.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

pluses and minuses for both, but I always enjoy a good pissing contest, so carry on.

positives for top mount
1. less than half the piping
2. cleaner engine bay by simplifying piping and routing
3. puts that gnarly scooped hood to actual use
4. does not block radiator (engine runs cooler)
5. can be thicker than front mount because of Euro NCAP (more room under hood)
6. because of the shorter piping, you see less pressure drop and quicker throttle response
7. because it sits horizontally in the engine bay, it can be sprayed with water easily for quick cooling
8. not damaged by road debris

negatives for top mount
1. if improperly set up, will be less efficient at cooling than a front mount
2. it's not "cool" looking. many ricers equate turbos with front mounts, and if you don't have a front mount, you obviously aren't making any power (this really should be a POSITIVE THING not a negative thing lol)


Positives for front mount:
1. looks cool
2. can be generally longer than a top mount (however, short fat intercoolers are more efficient [less pressure drop] than long thin coolers

Negatives for front mount:

1. silly piping running all over the place (in the case of rear mounted turbos, which is what this is about.. in a longitudinal engine, i.e. supra, front mount is perfect because the exhaust is on the passsenger side and intake is on the driver.. obvious routing is obvious)
2. less efficient because of all the extra bends and charge piping bends. every time you go WOT the turbo has to fill the entire length of charge piping AND intercooler before you actually see boost. this can exascerbate turbo lag
3. attracts unwanted attention (law inforcement comes to mind)
4. susceptible to road debris
5. blocks radiator and AC condenser
6. safety may or may not be compromised (bumper beam hacked) to make the IC/piping fit


that's all i have folks.

[PETERPOOP]

Originally Posted by Tamago

positives for top mount
1. less than half the piping
2. cleaner engine bay by simplifying piping and routing
3. puts that gnarly scooped hood to actual use
4. does not block radiator (engine runs cooler)
5. can be thicker than front mount because of Euro NCAP (more room under hood)
6. because of the shorter piping, you see less pressure drop and quicker throttle response
7. because it sits horizontally in the engine bay, it can be sprayed with water easily for quick cooling
8. not damaged by road debris

negatives for top mount
1. if improperly set up, will be less efficient at cooling than a front mount
2. it's not "cool" looking. many ricers equate turbos with front mounts, and if you don't have a front mount, you obviously aren't making any power (this really should be a POSITIVE THING not a negative thing lol)


Positives for front mount:
1. looks cool
2. can be generally longer than a top mount (however, short fat intercoolers are more efficient [less pressure drop] than long thin coolers

Negatives for front mount:

1. silly piping running all over the place (in the case of rear mounted turbos, which is what this is about.. in a longitudinal engine, i.e. supra, front mount is perfect because the exhaust is on the passsenger side and intake is on the driver.. obvious routing is obvious)
2. less efficient because of all the extra bends and charge piping bends. every time you go WOT the turbo has to fill the entire length of charge piping AND intercooler before you actually see boost. this can exascerbate turbo lag
3. attracts unwanted attention (law inforcement comes to mind)
4. susceptible to road debris
5. blocks radiator and AC condenser
6. safety may or may not be compromised (bumper beam hacked) to make the IC/piping fit


that's all i have folks.

not bias at all, of course.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by PETERPOOP

not bias at all, of course.

not at all..

let's see an intelligent bias in the other direction ;)

[rob323]

Don't you guys have access to barrel type water to air intercoolers over there? Best of both worlds.

[cdydjded]

Originally Posted by Tamago

not at all..

let's see an intelligent bias in the other direction ;)

95% of the disadvantage of a top mount is heat soak. Heat rises, a top mount places the I/C right on top of a hot engine. If FMIC are so overrated why is there not 1 aftermarket turbokit offered with a top mount? Why do 8 out of 10 factory turbocharge cars come with front mounts, example:
FMIC
Supra
Evo's
Grand Nationals
GLHS
RX7
Golf
3000GT
Eclipse

TMIC
WRX
CELICA

[Blown_xa]

Originally Posted by Tamago

positives for top mount
1. less than half the piping
2. cleaner engine bay by simplifying piping and routing
3. puts that gnarly scooped hood to actual use
4. does not block radiator (engine runs cooler)
5. can be thicker than front mount because of Euro NCAP (more room under hood)
6. because of the shorter piping, you see less pressure drop and quicker throttle response
7. because it sits horizontally in the engine bay, it can be sprayed with water easily for quick cooling
8. not damaged by road debris

negatives for top mount
1. if improperly set up, will be less efficient at cooling than a front mount
2. it's not "cool" looking. many ricers equate turbos with front mounts, and if you don't have a front mount, you obviously aren't making any power (this really should be a POSITIVE THING not a negative thing lol)


Positives for front mount:
1. looks cool
2. can be generally longer than a top mount (however, short fat intercoolers are more efficient [less pressure drop] than long thin coolers

Negatives for front mount:

1. silly piping running all over the place (in the case of rear mounted turbos, which is what this is about.. in a longitudinal engine, i.e. supra, front mount is perfect because the exhaust is on the passsenger side and intake is on the driver.. obvious routing is obvious)
2. less efficient because of all the extra bends and charge piping bends. every time you go WOT the turbo has to fill the entire length of charge piping AND intercooler before you actually see boost. this can exascerbate turbo lag
3. attracts unwanted attention (law inforcement comes to mind)
4. susceptible to road debris
5. blocks radiator and AC condenser
6. safety may or may not be compromised (bumper beam hacked) to make the IC/piping fit


that's all i have folks.

good points. A top mount will never provide the efficiency of a front mount though. The main reason WRC Subarus use a top mount is so the intercooler doesnt get ripped off landing crazy jumps. And WRC cars im pretty certain don't run on pump gas, so they don't need the cooling efficiency to supress detonation.

There is a forumula to calculate temperature drop vs. pressure drop. The benefits of temperature drop far outweigh pressure drop. And also the general formula to see the benifits of temperature drop in the charge stream. For every 10 degree drop is a 1% gain in hp. That may not sound like much, but a good example is my car... I ran no intercooler but with WMI. My MAF sensor temp probe was reading up to 280 degrees @17psi (Blow through set-up, before meth).

I just dropped in a Evo intercooler, The charge temps are now the same as ambient, in fact on a few dyno pulls during my last tune the temperature DROPPED a few degrees when boost hit. That's over a 200 degree drop...
At the same boost with the same timing I gained 25whp and 32ft.lbs. of torque. Also my spool up is within 200rpm as before, that isnt even noticable.

I have installed many front mount kits on STI's and Mazda speed 6/3's. Tuning past 250whp (with top mount) on our dyno is like pulling teeth for gains because of the heatsoak. To prevent risk of detonation more timing needs to be pulled. Any good tuner would agree to that. Even the Cobb base maps for the MS3 are specified for either a top or front mount(more conservative timing for top mount).

One thing I constuctively dissagree with is that the engine bay is cleaner with a top mount... I don't think so. Especially with the yaris and Ms3. Just about the only place for the top mount would be on top of the engine cover. I always found it to be a pain to have to remove pipes to service the car. They are routed to where you have to remove them to check spark plugs( which is something to be checked often on a aftermarket boosted car). And on the Subie you have to remove the intercooler to service the transmission /turbo/downpipe. The newer Subies have a smaller sized top mount with composite casing which makes life easier for working on the car, composite casing is for less heatsoak.

I say front mount.

good build, and whp numbers yet?

[lilredrocket]

Haha.

[TheRealEnth]

tell it to em =D

[Parmas]

The only thing for me that comes to a disadvantage is turbo lag.. When I commited myself in this project I was ready to make sacrifices such as no AC and some fitment issues to the front (nothing big though).

In my case a top mount is not suitable mainly because of heat since it would be about few cm infront of the turbo exhaust plus it will be covered with excess heat emitted by the engine. If the turbo was on the rear lower side or at the lower front that would be a different story.

As in terms of space and organization of the engine bay, I see it more nice nd clean at the front which btw that is my opinion on my ride.

[cali yaris]

^ "attracts unwanted attention" and "susceptible to road debris"? LOL

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

^ "attracts unwanted attention" and "susceptible to road debris"? LOL

hit a nice chunk of retread on the freeway and you won't LOL

[RacerFreakXXX]

I prefer a V mount intercooler, best of both worlds, rofl. Everything has its positives and negatives, imo you just have to find what setup works best for what you are using the car for. I don't know if that is even possible to put a V mount intercooler on the yaris seeing how short and stubby the front end is.

[cali yaris]

^
= $1,384 USD

You can now say f*ck that to THAT, but at least you'll be saying it to the right amount.

[Parmas]

+1 to ^^^^

[Parmas]

Been about a month since my last post.... within this time these are the updates:

- Installed JDM (carbon fibre) adjustable fuel regulator .. http://ajpdistributors.com/unjdmfuprrec.html

- Upgraded custom fuel rail with return line

- Custom fitting with 3 barbs on the intake for independent mainfold pressure / BOV and Boost controller

Still having trouble with initial tuning between 1200 - 3500 rpm ranges.... will update with pics and videos next time

[botchilah]

Synpase Engineering / Synchronic BOV for the win!

I have had a SARD, Blitz, Apexi and HKS in my other car. Nothing great. The Synapse one really helped improve spool, response and eliminate compressor surge