I NEED Boost... Opinions puh-lease - Page 19 - Toyota Yaris Forums

1.5ty · 10-05-2010, 08:46 AM

Yep I haven't done this for the last 3yr I haven't tuned anything with more power than a yairs so thing what ya want and ill do as I've done ill quit tryin to help more power to ya camelll

cali yaris · 10-05-2010, 10:17 AM

^ Sorry but you WERE incorrect on several of your points. Go ahead and "do as you've done", or stick around and learn something.

We each make our own choices, and you can make yours for you car, but posting totally incorrect information will rightfully get challenged.

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-05-2010, 11:51 AM

Guys, thanks so much for the input.

1.5ty, I appreciate your help but I know for a fact that technique is not going to fly with this car. I've added fuel with the FIC while idling and watched the AFR drop to 14- on my wideband then get immediately corrected. Open loop and closed loop are a big deal here.

Camelll, thanks so much bro. I've been wondering how Blitz handled this. Unfortunately, it gives me no more information than I already have.

What I find interesting is that you're boosting for awhile while in closed loop, correct? About what PSI do you reach before open loop kicks in in your case? The fact that you've been running two years successfully while boosting in closed loop really leads me to question how unsafe 14.7 is under light boost... Yes, I know I'm comparing two completely different things, but boost is boost - hot compressed air being forced into the manifold. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

cali yaris · 10-05-2010, 11:58 AM

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-05-2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali yaris

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

Right, but wouldn't there be some sort of a trend where open loop usually kicks in? Or can you just floor it, be outside of boost still, and throw the car into open loop?

...Am I just not driving my car hard enough? lol

eTiMaGo · 10-05-2010, 12:49 PM

we actually brainstormed and did some research about this a few years back, if you wanna take the time to sift through it:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15350
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21431

Pay close attention to the excel files linked, PK did some good data logging, and yes, no matter what your car is doing, what gear you're in, mash the throttle past the 75% signal and it'll go open loop.

In my mind, the ideal "simple" setup around open and closed loop would be what I call the Jekyll and Hyde approach. A boost controller set up for very gentle boost (maybe 5psi) for use during closed loop operation, and higher boost for open loop, and this would be triggered by the throttle position sensor. Add to that a piggyback that can also have different profiles based on throttle input (such as the apexi SAFC mentioned in the second link above), so that it'll let the ECU do its thing in closed loop, but then mess with things once the throttle goes past 75%.

So, driving "normally", you get the benefit of added power without reaching the limits of the engine/ECU, but when you put your foot down, then you get extra boost, and the piggyback to provide more appropriate fuelling, to unleash the beast within

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-05-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelll

Focus shift are you not seeing open loop at all? Do you have a manual or automatic?

I have an automatic and am not seeing open loop at all (as per Scangauge). The only time I enter open loop is early idling, and taking my foot off the throttle entirely.

Also - the reason I feel stoich may actually be alright is because there is no detonation, and IAT is always close to the ambient outside temp...

eTiMaGo, currently reading through those threads, but I had a thought. Does the ECU need to pass ALL the parameters to enter open loop? Because if not, there is probably a MAF voltage value whereby the ECU determines open loop is needed. If that's the case, a MAF clamp can be set up on the FIC at that value from where boost kicks in.

^^^ I feel the above may be possible due to the manner in which the Blitz fuel controller is hooked up, but 75% throttle might still be needed...

Bluevitz-rs · 10-05-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Focus_Sh1ft

...and IAT is always close to the ambient outside temp...

Just remember, that reading is BEFORE the turbo. The air going into the engine is actually a lot hotter.

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-05-2010, 11:22 PM

^ Yeah sorry, disregard that.

Looking at those excel sheets, it's pretty aparent 75% throttle plays a large role in changing to open loop. MAF reading seems to be pretty irrelevant, so my previous idea is (most likely) not going to work.

However, what if we mapped the TPS to one of the analog signals of the FIC? Then, could we possibly manipulate that signal to 75%? That would force open loop... This is probably way oversimplified and I'm sure there would be multiple other issues including a CEL.

eTiMaGo, we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out.

cali yaris · 10-06-2010, 01:02 AM

Quote:

we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out.

That's the spirit

eTiMaGo · 10-06-2010, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Focus_Sh1ft

However, what if we mapped the TPS to one of the analog signals of the FIC? Then, could we possibly manipulate that signal to 75%? That would force open loop... This is probably way oversimplified and I'm sure there would be multiple other issues including a CEL.

Sounds like quite the recipe for unintended acceleration!!!

Quote:

eTiMaGo, we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out.

sir yes sir! but keep in mind all I can offer is theoretical, we need all the experience amassed over the past few years from our 1NZ gurus

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-06-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eTiMaGo

Sounds like quite the recipe for unintended acceleration!!!

sir yes sir! but keep in mind all I can offer is theoretical, we need all the experience amassed over the past few years from our 1NZ gurus

Agreed, I'm hoping others with some knowledge will chime in with ideas. I'm really hoping to get this working with the FIC, and I know we can do it...

Regarding the unintended acceleration, I don't think that would happen. The actual throttle plate would be at less than 75%, but the ECU would think it's time for open loop and give us fueling control. We could clamp the MAF if necessary as well.

But I can see what you're saying... If the ECU sees an open throttle, it would increase the engine speed right? I need to look at the service manuals a bit more...

When I get the chance, the first thing I'm doing is fooling around with the O2 sensors.

Bluevitz-rs · 10-06-2010, 12:56 PM

I don't think you can do that with TBW. If the ECU sees more than what's input and the output of the throttle plate doesn't match, it'll go into failsafe.

eTiMaGo · 10-07-2010, 02:01 PM

another (cheaper) piece of electronics to fiddle around with the MAF signal in open loop, the HKS AFR (Air Fuel Regulator). Very simple little box with a dial for the degree of adjustment of the MAF signal (leaner or richer). Nowhere as precise as a proper piggyback, as there is no RPM-specific or throttle-specific arrangement, but it could work well to get an *overall* richer or leaner fuel mix while in open loop, similar effect to getting bigger injectors, I suppose!

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-11-2010, 11:16 AM

No updates on tuning unfortunately, haven't had time to deal with it yet. However, I did redo my oil pan as per Garm's observation about the removable stems. No leaks from it now

Unbelievably though, I'm now back to dealing with coolant leaks. I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong. I switched to M12 adapters that fit on the turbo VERY snug, but yet they still leak! I was so pissed when I noticed this yesterday, because I really don't know where to go from here. I'm thinking about just yanking water cooling

The only thought I had was that the hole on the adapters is too small and is creating a huge pressure buildup, which causes the coolant to back out through the threads. I have some pictures, but they suck. Basically, the diameter of the holes is about half of the lines I'm using. The adapters were really meant to be used for getting a pressure reading for a gauge. What do you guys think?

This is all getting incredibly frustrating... I just don't have time to deal with this BS over and over again with my classes. Oh, and I'm not even going to begin on how impossible it was to get those stems off. Unless you have an M4 female torx socket, you're practically SOL.

Focus_Sh1ft · 10-11-2010, 11:40 AM

Oh yeah also - read somewhere (MI?) that a 10% underdrive pulley decreases max boost obtainable or something?

Explain?

eTiMaGo · 10-11-2010, 11:57 AM

only for a supercharger, which is belt-driven ;)

cali yaris · 10-11-2010, 12:12 PM

underdrive pulley makes the supercharger pulley turn more slowly, DEcreasing boost.

no worries for you.

just YANK the water cooling and add it later. Just means you have to idle the car when you park it for now. Minimize your frustration!

10-05-2010, 08:46 AM	#325
1.5ty Rollerskate View User's Garage Drives: 09 hb Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Salisbury nc Posts: 59	Yep I haven't done this for the last 3yr I haven't tuned anything with more power than a yairs so thing what ya want and ill do as I've done ill quit tryin to help more power to ya camelll __________________ Its a roller-skate get it right add me on facebook if your from nc my email for facebook is drifter704@yahoo.com

10-05-2010, 10:17 AM	#326
cali yaris ULTIMATE View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris Turbo Join Date: May 2007 Location: Canoga Park, CA Posts: 14,859	^ Sorry but you WERE incorrect on several of your points. Go ahead and "do as you've done", or stick around and learn something. We each make our own choices, and you can make yours for you car, but posting totally incorrect information will rightfully get challenged. __________________ Micro Image forums, online store and shop are now closed. It was a great eight year run, but it was time to focus on other things. I'm still selling parts on eBay under micro*image seller ID and customers can still make requests for anything specific.

10-05-2010, 11:58 AM	#328
cali yaris ULTIMATE View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris Turbo Join Date: May 2007 Location: Canoga Park, CA Posts: 14,859	^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know. __________________ Micro Image forums, online store and shop are now closed. It was a great eight year run, but it was time to focus on other things. I'm still selling parts on eBay under micro*image seller ID and customers can still make requests for anything specific.

10-05-2010, 12:49 PM	#330
eTiMaGo vroom vroom View User's Garage Drives: lil red 5-door Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 7,744	we actually brainstormed and did some research about this a few years back, if you wanna take the time to sift through it: http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15350 http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21431 Pay close attention to the excel files linked, PK did some good data logging, and yes, no matter what your car is doing, what gear you're in, mash the throttle past the 75% signal and it'll go open loop. In my mind, the ideal "simple" setup around open and closed loop would be what I call the Jekyll and Hyde approach. A boost controller set up for very gentle boost (maybe 5psi) for use during closed loop operation, and higher boost for open loop, and this would be triggered by the throttle position sensor. Add to that a piggyback that can also have different profiles based on throttle input (such as the apexi SAFC mentioned in the second link above), so that it'll let the ECU do its thing in closed loop, but then mess with things once the throttle goes past 75%. So, driving "normally", you get the benefit of added power without reaching the limits of the engine/ECU, but when you put your foot down, then you get extra boost, and the piggyback to provide more appropriate fuelling, to unleash the beast within __________________ The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish. - Robert Jackson Bye bye 1NZ...

10-07-2010, 02:01 PM	#338
eTiMaGo vroom vroom View User's Garage Drives: lil red 5-door Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 7,744	another (cheaper) piece of electronics to fiddle around with the MAF signal in open loop, the HKS AFR (Air Fuel Regulator). Very simple little box with a dial for the degree of adjustment of the MAF signal (leaner or richer). Nowhere as precise as a proper piggyback, as there is no RPM-specific or throttle-specific arrangement, but it could work well to get an overall richer or leaner fuel mix while in open loop, similar effect to getting bigger injectors, I suppose! __________________ The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish. - Robert Jackson Bye bye 1NZ...

10-05-2010, 11:51 AM	#327
Focus_Sh1ft Drives: 08 Yaris Turbo; 06 tC Turbo Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 875	Guys, thanks so much for the input. 1.5ty, I appreciate your help but I know for a fact that technique is not going to fly with this car. I've added fuel with the FIC while idling and watched the AFR drop to 14- on my wideband then get immediately corrected. Open loop and closed loop are a big deal here. Camelll, thanks so much bro. I've been wondering how Blitz handled this. Unfortunately, it gives me no more information than I already have. What I find interesting is that you're boosting for awhile while in closed loop, correct? About what PSI do you reach before open loop kicks in in your case? The fact that you've been running two years successfully while boosting in closed loop really leads me to question how unsafe 14.7 is under light boost... Yes, I know I'm comparing two completely different things, but boost is boost - hot compressed air being forced into the manifold. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

10-05-2010, 11:22 PM	#333
Focus_Sh1ft Drives: 08 Yaris Turbo; 06 tC Turbo Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 875	^ Yeah sorry, disregard that. Looking at those excel sheets, it's pretty aparent 75% throttle plays a large role in changing to open loop. MAF reading seems to be pretty irrelevant, so my previous idea is (most likely) not going to work. However, what if we mapped the TPS to one of the analog signals of the FIC? Then, could we possibly manipulate that signal to 75%? That would force open loop... This is probably way oversimplified and I'm sure there would be multiple other issues including a CEL. eTiMaGo, we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out.

10-06-2010, 12:56 PM	#337
Bluevitz-rs 1NZ-6spd View User's Garage Drives: '05 6-Spd Vitz RS Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,967	I don't think you can do that with TBW. If the ECU sees more than what's input and the output of the throttle plate doesn't match, it'll go into failsafe.

10-11-2010, 11:40 AM	#340
Focus_Sh1ft Drives: 08 Yaris Turbo; 06 tC Turbo Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 875	Oh yeah also - read somewhere (MI?) that a 10% underdrive pulley decreases max boost obtainable or something? Explain?

10-11-2010, 11:57 AM	#341
eTiMaGo vroom vroom View User's Garage Drives: lil red 5-door Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 7,744	only for a supercharger, which is belt-driven ;) __________________ The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish. - Robert Jackson Bye bye 1NZ...

10-11-2010, 12:12 PM	#342
cali yaris ULTIMATE View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris Turbo Join Date: May 2007 Location: Canoga Park, CA Posts: 14,859	underdrive pulley makes the supercharger pulley turn more slowly, DEcreasing boost. no worries for you. just YANK the water cooling and add it later. Just means you have to idle the car when you park it for now. Minimize your frustration! __________________ Micro Image forums, online store and shop are now closed. It was a great eight year run, but it was time to focus on other things. I'm still selling parts on eBay under micro*image seller ID and customers can still make requests for anything specific.

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