tooter's manifold adventure...

[tooter]

Originally Posted by CrankyOldMan

No, but he's hired someone that does. This is all out-of-pocket expense for him, just to find out if it works. If you've got time, I recommend going through the whole thread to see how it's gotten to this stage.

That's right, Cranky. I have neither the skills or the machine. The CNC guys are the real wizards. They take my concepts and turn them into reality. It's a totally fascinating creative process that is as interesting as the finished products. And I can tell you from first hand experience... the curiosity to find out what happens can get expensive, but since I'm already totally hooked on exploring the unknown, I just have to keep going in order to find out.

[tooter]

I pick up the parts this afternoon. The second throttle body base will be done then.



This is my inspiration for the design...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGH6cm0XsTg

If it works one way... it'll work the other way.

[tooter]

They turned out beautifully...





This throttle body base plate also has a secondary function in that it makes it easy to install a 1ZZ throttle body onto any 1NZ supercharger. Just cut off the old baseplate with a hacksaw, flare out the end of the supercharger's intake with a grinder, and weld this one onto the intake.





This is a mockup of the et manifold layout...

[4/20 NEVER FORGET]

Awesome.

This thread is awesome.

[tooter]

I find this creative process itself to be MORE fascinating than the end products. These ideas are literally being dreamed up. But that's no guarantee that they'll work! What interests me is finding out what will happen if I do what I dream up, and to always be open to the next idea. Creativity is not a static terminal closed event arriving at a fixed destination. It's a constantly evolving flow of innovation...

...and it's no end of fun following that slender silver thread of interest just to see where it leads.

[CrankyOldMan]

Originally Posted by tooter

Creativity is not a static terminal closed event arriving at a fixed destination. It's a constantly evolving flow of innovation...

That's the beauty of doing this in a non-production environment: there's no pressure to produce, no minimum performance to achieve, and no backlash if it doesn't meet those performance goals. I think that's what ultimately killed Mr. Holdener's project, so it's very impressive to see this continuing to evolve and still generate some commercial activity.

[tooter]

Originally Posted by CrankyOldMan

That's the beauty of doing this in a non-production environment: there's no pressure to produce, no minimum performance to achieve, and no backlash if it doesn't meet those performance goals. I think that's what ultimately killed Mr. Holdener's project, so it's very impressive to see this continuing to evolve and still generate some commercial activity.

Yes. I followed Richard's project with great interest. His manifold was scarcely any different from the design of the Golden Eagle or Weapon R manifolds as they all went down the same well worn path by following exactly the same basic cookie cutter pattern.

I heard a great joke about clicking TV remote controls that holds within it a great insight:

"Women want to know what's on TV... while men want to know what else is on TV.

I want to find out what ELSE is on TV...

...and I've sold enough manifolds and kits and individual parts to be able to afford the luxury of some pure R & D. And now that I have a 2012 Tacoma with a 2.7 4 cylinder, I'm already working on designing a new tooter product for it that no one else has ever produced. You have no idea just how much fun letting your attention flow from one thing to another just for its own sake of the fun of exploration.

This is the pure beauty of a microbusiness.

It's an artform...

...a blank canvas upon which you are free to paint any picture you choose. I answer to no one. As the "CEO", I'm totally autonomous to make my own decisions, and totally free to leave the beaten path to explore my own interests because I have my own regular business for 32 years that puts bread on the table.

[tooter]

Here's a video of the throttle body bellmouth being machined...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gfM93R81Xs

[cali yaris]

they all went down the same well worn path by following exactly the same basic cookie cutter pattern.

Yes - because it works and makes power. Additional power was our non-negotiable goal in order to market the product, and we were very careful to do the math first on runner length.
The math tells you what to do.

Your goal is simply to "find out", and you are on your second round (or more) of that process. It's fun to follow!

[tooter]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

Yes - because it works and makes power.

Of course, Garm. It's not Golden Eagle's aim to explore or to innovate, but to make their product by utilizing a preexisting design.

That's the difference between what's on TV... and what else is on TV.

(by the way, you still haven't produced that 7 hp dyno graph )

[cali yaris]

It's not Golden Eagle's aim to explore or to innovate, but to make their product by utilizing a preexisting design.

Correct. My design. From drawings produced by collaborating with an engineer. I have the files, which predate my "competitor's" claims by well over a year.

[tooter]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

Correct. My design. From drawings produced by collaborating with an engineer. I have the files, which predate my "competitor's" claims by well over a year.

What went on with dates and competitors is something else entirely. That is only between you and others, and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I was only referring to the basic similarity of the Golden Eagle, Weapon R, and Richard Holdener manifolds because they all follow the same accepted well-travelled parameters of intake manifold design.

I'm more interested in what else is outside of those parameters.

[cali yaris]

^ We all are -- and like I said, it's fun to watch you experiment. So far, you're proving that the "same accepted well-travelled patterns" are such for a reason; they get measurable results.

(The WeaponR did not by the way, as far as I've been able to tell).

Maybe ET will show us something new.

[tooter]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

So far, you're proving that the "same accepted well-travelled patterns" are such for a reason; they get measurable results.

Since you mentioned measurable results, what happened to that 7hp dyno graph, Garm?

[cali yaris]

^ I explained that. Clearly. Remember? The fact that you keep bringing it up is telling, in my opinion.

A peak of 7hp is not as impressive (and shouldn't be) than a dyno pull that shows a smaller peak, but useful power gains through a larger range.

The Weapon R manifold, as tested on an xB, lost power. Using the phrase "cookie cutter" is an unfair and specious comparison to a product that got a different (and much better) result, in an attempt to lump them together. One clearly was just made to fit the motor, and the other was created from calculations and performance design considerations. The results speak for themselves.

Maybe we can just leave it there, so we can get back to watching your experiments, which I think are cool -- it is your thread, after all.

[tooter]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

^ I explained that. Clearly. Remember?

Yes. This is what you said:

We did several pulls, this one showed the best distribution of power gains, but not the greatest power gains.

Then I said why not post the chart showing everyone that 7hp gain, and then you said that you wouldn't do it.

It's totally understandable why Golden Eagle would want their product to be presented to the public in the very best light possible. Every marketer does exactly that. So it's perfectly natural not to want to disclose anything that could adversely affect that favorable image. It's clear that other graph might do just that, because if it did not, it would have been posted long ago. So it is obviously in your own best interest (and Golden Eagle's too) to freely choose not to post the graph even if it means leaving a hp claim undocumented.

Everyone weighs in their own balance choices that are of a similar nature as this one... and it is these choices which make life interesting.

[cali yaris]

1. We only kept one dyno chart, the best one in my judgement. I stand by it, and the customer feedback has been excellent in terms of noticeable power gains and ease of installation.

If you don't believe that we got 7hp on one pull, that is significant, tooter; most people that know or buy from me by now trust me to tell the truth. Do you?

2. Golden Eagle is a fabricator. They didn't design, nor do they "market" the product. They had nothing to do with our design or testing, nor do they have a copy of the dyno results. We do that. I am the co-designer, and my company markets the product.

[jetblast]

Alright you two stop kicking sand. :) Garm you get the Tonka dumptruck, and Tooter you get the Tonka bulldozer. Now play nice in the sandbox! Please. Thanks to both of you for your time and efforts, and risks. I think I speak for many in that we all greatly appreciate the cool stuff you guys do. This community is blessed to have you guys around.

Thank You Both!!!!!!!!!